S2E7 Ron - Leading with Human Pride

[00:00:00] Preview 

[00:00:01] Ron Thurston: ​This is the beauty, again, of retail. In an accidental world of accidental careers, your job as a leader is to discover what they're good at and then optimize it.

[00:00:13] It's not encouraging, you know, fear. Fear is a leadership tactic. I won't even say it's a style, it's a tactic used to deliver short-term results.

[00:00:23] Well, you don't have a time and attendance problem. You have a pride problem.

[00:00:27] Show Intro

[00:00:33] Ricardo Belmar: Welcome to Blade to Greatness, the podcast where retail leaders sharpen their edge, one essential skill at a time, as we uncover the essential traits every retail leader needs to thrive.

[00:00:45] I'm Ricardo Belmar.

[00:00:46] Casey Golden: And I am Casey Golden.

[00:00:48] Each episode this season, we are joined by a guest who brings one transformative leadership skill into focus. And today is all about leading with pride rather than fear.

[00:00:59] Ricardo Belmar: Our [00:01:00] guest is Ron Thurston, bestselling author of Retail Pride, senior retail executive of so many leading brands, and now the voice behind Human Pride, his latest book that challenges leaders to rethink how they show up for their teams. Plus, Ron is host of the podcasts, Frontline Fridays and Retail in America.

[00:01:17] Casey Golden: Ron makes a compelling case. Fear-based leadership might be fast, but it's brittle. Pride based leadership rooted in trust, belief, and care builds long-term performance and emotional commitment.

[00:01:29] Ricardo Belmar: You'll hear Ron break down what it means to lead with human pride through ownership, connection, and optimism. He'll also reveal how fear can creep into leadership in subtle ways, and how to replace it with pride that uplifts and empowers.

[00:01:44] Casey Golden: And the ripple effect, it's real. From team morale to customer experiences through retention, pride transforms everything. Plus, Ron shares a daily practice that's simple but powerful. Praise out loud, coach [00:02:00] with heart and model what pride looks like.

[00:02:03] Ricardo Belmar: This episode is, really a blueprint for building culture through clarity, care, and courage.

[00:02:10] But, before we dive in with Ron, let me tell you about our new sponsor of the Retail Razor Podcast Network, Retail Club.

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[00:03:01] Ricardo Belmar: And check out the other shows in the Retail Razor Podcast Network, if you haven't yet. That's The Retail Razor Show, Retail Transformers, and Data Blades. You'll find them in your favorite podcast player. Or visit our YouTube channel to find them all.

[00:03:14] Now let's get into it.

[00:03:15] Casey Golden: Here's our conversation with Ron Thurston.

[00:03:18] ​

[00:03:24] Welcome Back, Ron Thurston!

[00:03:24] Casey Golden: Ron, welcome back to another Blade to Greatness. Always enjoy having you on the show.

[00:03:29] Ron Thurston: Thank you Casey. Thank you. Hi, Ricardo. Great to be back.

[00:03:32] Ricardo Belmar: Hi Ron, so today we're gonna talk about a very important skill every retail leader needs to master: how to lead with human pride, not fear. As many leaders learn, fear-based leadership might be fast but it's also very brittle. Now, how's a pride based leadership different?

[00:03:49] Retail Pride Origins

[00:03:49] Ron Thurston: So I'll back up a little bit for those that may not know. So I have two books, both with the word pride in the title.

[00:03:56] So this is a word that I have great [00:04:00] respect for. It's a word that people, everyone I know has an emotional relationship with the word pride. And whatever that means for you, whatever that looks like in your life is different.

[00:04:13] And I respect it and I, I think about this word and the relationship with this word often. So my first book being titled Retail Pride. You know this idea that these two words had never been used together? No one had ever said retail and pride, and I was, it was, to be honest, a last minute title change because I felt like the words needed to be stronger and this kind of more memorable to be, and I'll give you a fun fact.

[00:04:43] The original title of that book was Retail, The Career That's Okay to Love. And that was the original title of Retail Pride. And it was a last minute of like, I just, I, it's not strong enough. Like there's a word that's missing here [00:05:00] that describes how people experience what life and their careers and it, and it's pride.

[00:05:08] And so this idea of the guide to celebrating your accidental career is about, this might be accidental, but I'm really proud of it.

[00:05:16] And so that, that was kind of step one, step two for the my book that came out this year.

[00:05:23] Human Pride vs AI

[00:05:23] Ron Thurston: You know, staying with that same idea, but even taking it further and saying, as humans in a world where a constant evolution of technology is, installed, is creating fear, it's creating some chaos. It's creating an unknown future about how we will work. There's just this sense of, I'm not really sure how my world will be different a year from now. My message was, we have to optimize our own human potential in order to counterbalance the unknown of technology.

[00:05:57] So the subtitle of Human Pride being [00:06:00] Optimizing Your Human Potential in a Digital Job Market, because these are the, the conversations that I hear at every conference on every stage on a lot of podcasts is, are about AI and technology and the future, and we need to be highly educated in this. And I spend a lot of time learning. But what I'm more interested in and what I speak and write about more is what, what's your own human potential?

[00:06:28] Optimize Team Strengths

[00:06:41] Ron Thurston: Why does leading with pride make such a difference when your team is nervous about the future. How does, how to think about, what are you really good at? Let's just sit down like Ricardo and Casey and let's really map out what are your most optimal human skills.

[00:06:46] Are you a great communicator? Are you a great thinker? Are you good at brainstorming new ideas? Are you kind of a future thinker? Are you, you know, if you apply it to retail, are you really good at visual merchandising? Are [00:07:00] you incredible at creating customer experiences? What are your innate human skills that can't be replaced by AI?

[00:07:09] And I want, I don't even like to say replaced by, because I think everyone's work is enhanced in some way. And so this idea of what are your human skills that are your power, your own personal human superpowers, that can be supplemented and assisted and in some ways optimized through technology, but you never let go of what you are good at. And that's, for me, that's leading with human pride. That you know exactly everyone on your team, what they are good at, what they shine in, what they love to do, what gives them their greatest joy. Your job as a leader is to discover that.

[00:07:51] Ricardo Belmar: Hmm.

[00:07:52] Ron Thurston: And they may not even know it themselves. This is the beauty, again, of retail. In an accidental world of accidental [00:08:00] careers, your job as a leader is to discover what they're good at and then optimize it. Say, well, I really see something interesting in you, Casey, like I really see when you engage with customers that come in with this specific challenge, everyone leaves with this incredible joy in their experience with you. Let's figure out how we can optimize that with you. So what do you need to do more of that? Well, I need more technology support, or I need more time, or my schedule needs to shift. Great. Well, let's try those. Let's just continue to optimize everyone on the team.

[00:08:38] Small Teams Reality

[00:08:38] Ron Thurston: The reality is part B of this is that teams are smaller today.

[00:08:42] They are. They're smaller in stores and they're smaller in the office. So the idea of optimizing the human potential of everyone on a team when the team is smaller is actually never been more important. And because there was a time even, [00:09:00] think five years ago, many retail teams were probably double the size they are today.

[00:09:05] We have optimized the payroll deliver to the bottom line, which is totally different conversation. You know, while the workload is through the roof. We've optimized payroll in a way that puts the minimum number of people on the floor.

[00:09:20] Ricardo Belmar: mm-hmm.

[00:09:21] Right.

[00:09:22] Ron Thurston: I understand the, I've run retail businesses my whole life. I understand the financial gain. But if then as a leader, that's, that's our goal. We have to optimize every single person and every single hour and every single experience to its peak or all of this kind of cutting and shaving and all this payroll. Doesn't work anymore.

[00:09:47] So that's, it's a long answer to your question, Ricardo, but leading with human pride is discovering what everyone's power is and how you can optimize it and be proud of that work.

[00:09:58] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, no, I think you're [00:10:00] right. It it is a huge difference to your team, right? When you're focusing on what the positives are and, and as you say, you know, optimizing the things that you are good at and can do more of.

[00:10:10] To get more value from the team and to get more performance that way, rather than taking that fear-based approach where you focus on the negatives and try to, you know, work on how can you eliminate those negatives, which is coming out from the opposite side, but not very encouraging though when you work it that way.

[00:10:26] Fear Tactic Breakdown

[00:10:26] Ron Thurston: It's not encouraging, you know, fear. Fear is a leadership tactic. I won't even say it's a style, it's a tactic used to deliver short-term results. If you don't do this, this is going to happen to you

[00:10:39] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. It focuses on the con, on the negative consequence.

[00:10:41] Ron Thurston: It's a negative consequence. And there, there are situations and things like time and attendance, policy violation.

[00:10:48] There, there is a reason to say certain actions deliver a certain response. I, I get that. But fear as an overall, like, well, if you [00:11:00] don't do this, then we're not gonna give you any more product or this, or we're not going to re renovate your store if you don't deliver, you know, a 40 comp this year. Like, that's fear based leadership instead saying, well, how, how would your cust what would happen if we spent a million dollars and we renovated your store?

[00:11:20] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:20] Ron Thurston: would you how would that make you feel? Well, I'd be really proud of my beautiful new store. How would your customer respond to that? If we added through that renovation, four more fitting rooms to your business? What would happen? Wow. Well, they wouldn't have to wait on Saturday. We could convert more business that could spend more time in the fitting room, increasing the average transaction conversion in the store.

[00:11:43] All of this would improve.

[00:11:44] So let's do the math of like this really proud, beautiful store that we just spent a million dollars on. How quickly do you think we could get that back?

[00:11:54] Well, wow, if we do all like probably in less than a year we could deliver that.

[00:11:59] So why [00:12:00] don't we like. Lead that way instead of this like, if you don't do it, you're never gonna get a new store.

[00:12:06] Or you know, this constant like, we don't have any money this year. That's been, unfortunately, that's the 2025 seems to be motto of brick and mortar retail. We don't have money this year to do that and fine, I understand it, but, that's not a long-term solution to creating pride in your work.

[00:12:30] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:12:30] Casey Golden: not gonna help get the money for next year either.

[00:12:35] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:12:36] Ron Thurston: It's, it's exactly. It won't.

[00:12:38] Pride Reduces Turnover

[00:12:59] Ron Thurston: And so then, as I mentioned, small teams, when turnover becomes the number one. Problem and open roles become the biggest problem because if you're on a team of five that was a team of 10, and one person leaves, two people leave, your 40% of your head count is gone. And so then you'd say, we [00:13:00] have to then reduce turnover. You reduce turnover through pride in your work.

[00:13:05] If you're proud of where you work and you're proud of, of your leader, you don't leave. And we all understand the statistics of, you know, I leave bad managers and not companies. We've all heard all these buzz phrases, but the. But the reality is that it's really true

[00:13:24] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:13:25] Ron Thurston: Leaders change everything about a business. Everything,

[00:13:30] Measuring Pride Signals

[00:13:30] Ricardo Belmar: Ron, how do you know as a leader that, that your team is feeling pride in their work?

[00:13:36] Ron Thurston: in my opinion, you ask, you, it's as simple as like, let's talk about how you feel

[00:13:42] And let's talk about, and. The only way that happens is that you've built enough trust that people tell you the truth. Because you can be in environments where everyone says, oh my gosh, I love it here. You're amazing. Like, I love working [00:14:00] here.

[00:14:00] Love what the company does, and the minute you leave. I'd be like, thank God they're gone and this place sucks and I can't wait to find a new job. But if you've built trust over time that people will tell you the truth, good and bad, then you know how you can solve for it. And it's perfectly, I think. I actually love when people would tell me the truth and say, I really don't like what you're doing. I don't like how the company has moved in this direction, or that this is now gone from tools and resources I had, so that I can honestly answer the question about what may have happened, of what, why things needed to change. So if you, if you. Build relationships with everyone in the organization that they feel that they can tell you the truth, then you can solve for it.

[00:14:54] And you understand that actually real, real pride is told [00:15:00] in unsolicited ways of how they show up. And statistically yeah, retention goes down time. Things like time and attendance, which shockingly still is a conversation every brand has. For every company I consult with. Usually like the top three. We have a time and attendance problem.

[00:15:20] Well, you don't have a time and attendance problem. You have a pride problem.

[00:15:23] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:15:24] There's a reason, right? There's a reason that's

[00:15:25] Ron Thurston: There's a

[00:15:26] Ricardo Belmar: and you have to get to it.

[00:15:27] Ron Thurston: When you're proud, you show up, you show up early, you're ready to work, you're excited to meet your customers for the day so that there are deep rooted. You know, I think statistics, KPIs show up differently in organizations where there's not pride, and so if you solve that. Through great, just listening, answering, being transparent. Some of the rest of it actually solves itself.

[00:15:53] People start to come to work on time. That sounds so basic, but

[00:15:57] Ricardo Belmar: but it's

[00:15:58] Ron Thurston: But, but it's true. It's [00:16:00] just a, it's a symptom of bigger problems. So that's how you know Ricardo, is that you've asked, and you've also looked at all the data, and you can paint a pretty clear picture.

[00:16:10] Pivot From Fear

[00:16:10] Casey Golden: So once you recognize that fear might be leading the culture, how do you pivot?

[00:16:17] Ron Thurston: It's that, it's the ability to self-reflect. So I write a lot. It's a lot of Human Pride book is about self-reflection. There are questions in there before every chapter starts. Ask yourself these questions, because you need to be emotionally prepared for the journey you're going to go on to understand your leadership. The first half of the book is specifically for job seekers. Because that's such an emotional journey and it's also now riddled with technology. So we, we have to navigate the pitfalls of human emotion and how to navigate a system that is now very rooted in AI. And so those two things [00:17:00] alone, but you would say. Well, what's, what's working? What's, what's not? How do I pivot? How do I change? So whether you're a job seeker and you change the way you approach telling your own story, you approach, you change the way you think about how you will lead differently. It said the pivot could be Casey, like all of a sudden you've recognized that you have three or four generations of people working in the same. Same office. Same store, and that the way you've led the current team, it doesn't work for the newer teams that are coming in. It doesn't work. So you'd say, okay, I've gotta pivot here. I've, addressing the audience in a different way, thinking about how I work, thinking about which projects I give to which people think about learning styles, listening styles.

[00:17:54] There's so much that goes into leading a multi-generational workforce [00:18:00] at the days of doing it the same way for everyone are over.

[00:18:05] That's not possible anymore to do that. And so that, that's a pivot to say, you know, we've always done this as, is this, and it seemed to have worked and that still works for some people, but we also need a new way, to do it. And we're gonna learn what that new way is by asking people how do you wanna learn? Where, how do you wanna spend your time? How much training do you feel like you need? Which technology, resources and tools do you need to do your job well? So you're learning and you're changing, and you're open to the, to what you need to do to create pride in the workforce.

[00:18:42] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. Yeah it's amazing how much, just some self-reflection and asking the questions, and listening to the answers can make such a huge, huge difference.

[00:18:50] Well, Ron, this has been another enlightening discussion. Well, thank you for highlighting such an important skill that every retail leader needs.

[00:18:56] Ron Thurston: My pleasure.

[00:18:57] Casey Golden: You're an incredible role model for leading [00:19:00] with pride versus fear, but just in retail leadership overall. So, I know we've said this before on the, on the show, but we do just need more leaders like you and people willing to take that self-reflection to become the next level leader for their own career.

[00:19:21] Ron Thurston: Thank you. That's really nice. I appreciate that.

[00:19:23] Casey Golden: Well, Ricardo, I'd say this episode is a wrap.

[00:19:27] ​

[00:19:27] Show Close

[00:19:33] Casey Golden: If you enjoyed today's episode, please give us a five star rating and review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or Good pods. And don't forget to hit subscribe on your favorite podcast app or YouTube so you never miss an episode.

[00:19:48] I'm Casey Golden.

[00:19:49] Ricardo Belmar: We'd love to hear from you. Follow us and share your feedback at Retail Razor on LinkedIn, Bluesky, Threads and Instagram. You can also subscribe to our Substack newsletter for highlights from [00:20:00] every episode, and visit retailrazor.com for transcripts and more details about our amazing guests. Blade to Greatness is part of the Retail Razor Podcast network.

[00:20:09] I'm Ricardo Belmar.

[00:20:10] Casey Golden: Thanks for joining us

[00:20:12] Ricardo Belmar: Until next time... Stay sharp. Lead boldly. Stay human.

[00:20:15] This is The Retail Razor Blade to Greatness.

[00:20:18] ​