31% of the Fortune 500 Has No CMO

20 years ago, CMOs built brands.

Today, they're expected to build businesses

Who's actually running the business today, the CEO or the CMO?

The modern CMO isn't just buying media and

approving campaigns anymore.

Our guest has spent nearly 20 years doing exactly that,

helping build some of the biggest brands in consumer technology.

Samsung, Motorola, TCL, and he's asking the same

questions the rest of us are.

What does marketing even look like in 2027?

How many AI agents will your marketing team have next year?

Grab a notebook.

This isn't a marketing episode.

It's a masterclass in modern leadership.

Now let's meet our latest retail transformer, Cole Moir.

Welcome to Retail Transformers, candid conversations with the visionaries

shaping the future of commerce.

I'm Ricardo Belmar.

I'm Casey Golden.

Welcome back, Retail Razor fans.

We're here to cut through the clutter to bring you the sharpest insights from

the leaders redefining retail, consumer brands, and the future of business.

Casey, I think we can all agree marketing has had quite the

identity crisis over the last decade.

That's putting it lightly.

We went from debating billboards and banner ads to talking about AI

agent, creator economies, retail media networks, and whether your

refrigerator should have a personality.

'Cause that's what everybody needs, right?

A refrigerator with a personality.

Well, given today's guest's background in consumer electronics,

uh, that might not be that far away.

Right?

Because today's CMOs aren't just marketers, they're operators.

They're expected to drive growth, shape culture, influence product

strategy, and create customer experiences that span digital, physical

retail, and everything in between.

And that's exactly why we're excited about today's conversation.

Our guest has spent nearly, what, two decades now leading marketing from

some of the world's most recognizable consumer technology brands, from Samsung

to Motorola, and most recently TCL.

He's helped shape how millions of consumers discover, engage with,

and ultimately buy technology.

Along the way, Cole has led major partnerships with organizations

including the NFL, the Olympic Games, and Call of Duty, proving that great marketing

isn't just about impressions and clicks.

It's about creating moments that consumers remember.

And here's what makes today's conversation

particularly interesting.

For the first time in nearly 20 years, Cole joins us at a transition

point in his career, bringing a perspective that's equal parts

operator, strategist, and futurist.

Yeah.

So today we're skipping the corporate talking points.

We're talking about what CEOs get wrong about marketing, revealing how much

brands should actually be spending on social media, and talking openly about

AI, influencers, media, and whether the traditional marketing organization

is built for what's coming next.

And of course, we're asking the question I'm sure

everyone listening is thinking.

If Cole Moir were building a marketing team from scratch

tomorrow, what would it look like?

Mm-hmm.

you're a marketer, a founder, a retail exec, or someone trying to

understand where business is headed over the next five years, you're

gonna wanna stay for this one.

But before we get started, I'd like to thank our sponsor, RetailClub.

Join 2,000 retail leaders at the RetailClub AI Festival, September

22nd to 24th in Huntington Beach to dive deep into how AI is reshaping

retail while soaking up the sun at a fully outdoor beachside venue.

Decision makers from retailers and brands can attend with free tickets and

up to $1,250 in travel reimbursement.

Head to retailclub.com/retail-razor-podcast

to learn more.

A big thank you to RetailClub for helping us bring you this

podcast and all the other shows in the Retail Razor Podcast Network

All right, Retail Razor fans, let's go.

Please welcome to Retail Transformers marketing leader, brand builder, and

student of what's next, Cole Moir.

Cole welcome to the show

Thank you.

Excited to

Really excited to have you here today

I've been looking forward to this all week

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Well, let's dive in

You have spent nearly two decades turning relevance into revenue.

the CMO used to own the brand in advertising.

I think we all have the pens and like the tote bags.

today though, marketing's changed and many own growth, digital,

loyalty, customer experience, and more often than not, a P&L.

How has the role fundamentally changed and what do CEOs expect from

their CMOs headed into like 2027?

That's a great question, especially to kick this off.

I think

Well, we're recording, we're first from the meat.

That's right.

That's right

We're, we're gonna rub straight on in.

Yeah.

Yep.

No sugar

20 years ago, a-and I think what you said 20 years ago, really owned

the marketing calendar, the budgets, and were 100% accountable for everything and

how it was performing and driving impact.

And today, that's changed pretty dramatically.

CMOs are expected to deliver more impact that's, measurable with fewer resources,

shortened timelines, and complex dynamic, markets, things that we've never seen

before, social media, programmatic.

And all of these things keep compounding and growing.

And like I said, they're dynamic.

So the… It's just a very different way, of thinking.

And what's really interesting, I think, for a lot of organizations is

they're actually removing the CMO or changing their title or shifting their

responsibilities, like you said, chief growth officer, chief revenue officer.

You know, 31% of Fortune 500 companies actually don't

have a, a CMO at the moment.

That role's really changed and evolved, to where it is, and I think we're gonna

continue to see that more in the future.

Companies like Starbucks and Walgreens and General Motors don't have what

a traditional CMO used to look like.

So I think that's really indicative of how we're gonna see that space

change over the next couple of years.

I think in, in 2027, I think we're gonna see more complex modeling.

I think as AI grows and evolves and people's appetite for, you know, different

media platforms, I think we're gonna see a more complex, system that shows up.

I think we're gonna see new ways of measuring those models, to

hold impact to those chief growth officers or chief revenue officers.

And I think we're gonna see AI integration into systems and new processes like we

talked about earlier, not just bolted on to a marketing system, but it's

actually integrated into the system, and we're not replacing roles, we're

re-skilling people and making AI a, a more fundamental, element of the

way that we think about marketing.

How do you think that plays with the CEOs in organizations?

Does your, typical CEO kind of align with what you just described to where this

role, whether it's, they're calling it CMO or chief growth officer and where

it's going, or are more CEOs still kind of i- it, thinking about a more

traditional CMO role from the past?

I think that de- really depends on the organization.

I think almost everyone is dipping their toe in AI at the moment, and I

think there's very few people that have really unpacked its full capability.

So I think the CEOs that are getting there are seeing it kind

of how we're talking about it now.

But I think the CEOs that are just using it to kind of answer questions or maybe

to write copy in emails are, are probably looking at it, kind of in the past.

So I think we're gonna see a lot of change in the next couple of, years with this.

CMO role seems that it's become closer to a business operator

than a traditional brand leader.

Like, the natural progression to succeed into a CEO role used to be on the

running revenue, the sales background.

That was very stepladder, having that P&L responsibility.

But today, do you think that's now shifted that next CEO might be funneling

from the CMO as a, a more modern CMO?

Ooh.

I think that's a really interesting take, and I, I would put money there.

you know, I think we see a lot of, like you said, CEOs that grow from

sales, but I think as we shift the impact and responsibility of, our

budgets in marketing to drive those sales, that CMO really has visibility

into how the organization looks.

It's not really about marketing anymore.

It's really about transformation, and growth.

So yeah, I think that's a really interesting take and one I

would also put money on if I was a betting person, but yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, I think I, I agree.

I think that's becoming a really interesting path in and of itself there.

So maybe this is a good point before we keep going.

Cole, give us a little bit of your, background, since we went straight

in to, to go into the meat of things.

But let's just step back for just a sec, and give us a little bit

of rundown on where your career's been and what you've been up to.

Yeah.

so recently I spent the, the last three years at TCL, the technology company,

where I grew or, or helped grow the organization to the fastest-growing

consumer electronics brand, for the past two consecutive years.

So really exciting work.

But prior to that, I've spent time in technology working at Samsung, Sony

Entertainment, Motorola, which was owned by Lenovo and previously Google.

And then before that I worked at agencies Ogilvy, Edelman, 360i.

So I've had a, a really round career in what it looks like to grow business

and how we think consumer first and what, digital marketing looks

like kind of at the center of that.

You've had a good mix, kind of in all areas with

in and around th- this entire, marketing collection of roles.

I'm, curious what you, think about, how marketing organizations

are structured today, and are they ready for where we're going?

Do you, think that, there are roles are missing in every marketing

team for the next few years?

That's a great question.

Ha- kind of having sat on both sides o-of the fence and, and how marketing

has grown, I truly think that the organization, is gonna be less about

who reports to who and more about leadership, managing capabilities

or orchestrating capabilities.

It's going to be more about, what capabilities you can activate,

combine, and scale on demand.

And I think by doing that, you're going to be focusing on building faster, more

resilient, and more impactful teams that are actually solving business problems,

not really focusing on what the calendar says we'll be, we'll be looking at.

So I think the strategic shift really becomes, smaller

strategic teams, leveraging AI or integrating it in your systems and

partnering with AI flexible teams.

And then those-- truly, those functional silos kind of collapse.

I think in the future, we'll have, you know, teams that are five to

fifteen, maybe twenty agents, that are really focused on optimizing

the work, creating new work.

And then we'll have, you know, your always-on teams that are really

building your briefs and helping to translate what the business problem

is into, something that could be digestible by, your AI agents.

And then those individuals will be the ones that are managing

both, taste and, impact.

So big shift.

Yeah,

a big shift.

Where do you see, like, the biggest talent gap today?

Is it gonna be in strategy, tech, data, creativity, vision,

or, like, something else?

Yeah.

I, I think kind of all of those things.

I think when we bring AI into it, and I, I've done some studying on this

recently, is we're really gonna have to focus on reskilling ourselves, and

two of those main things are going to be taste, taste levels, 'cause AI can

produce infinite pieces of creative,

Right.

Right

that can determine whether it's good or bad is

Yeah

and then having the right measurement set up to be able to

understand whether it's, you know, it's gonna work or it's not gonna

work even before you get to, to market

Don't need any re-skilling.

I got good taste.

S- says our, our, our, says our speaker

from the luxury side of retail.

I'm expensive, but I got good taste.

I, and we can even tell just by the small background

window we have of yours.

That's right.

taste

Well, Cole, so, g- given that, I'm, I'm curious, would,

would you say companies are, are kind of prepared to hire for, to fill

those gaps, or are they still sort of hiring kind of tomorrow, yesterday's

roles rather, in the hopes that they reskill into tomorrow's functions?

Yeah, it-- I, I think we're still really focused on

hiring, what it looked like in twenty twenty-three, twenty twenty-four

Mm-hmm.

Yeah

think the roles that are gonna be absolutely critical

is going to be a head of brand,

Mm-hmm.

they'll build the vision and the budget.

There's going to need to be a head of performance and lifestyle, and

they're really gonna be focused on who the consumer is, how it's

evolving, and how they drive impact.

I think there needs to be a head of content, which is really gonna be

responsible for scale and storytelling.

Then I think there needs to be a head of marketing, technology and

AI, which is gonna be responsible for integrating process, data, and creative.

I think those are kind of four key roles that have to exist in order to build this.

Yeah

think we build around problems or, or things that we need

to solve versus having a person who's just responsible for Twitter

Hmm.

Yeah.

Sorry, Casey.

Yeah.

not just Facebook

It's starting to look a lot more cross-functional.

I miss Twitter.

You've partnered with some of the largest IP in the world,

NFL, Call of Duty, The Olympics.

These are like dreams for most brands, but how do these partnerships actually work?

Like, walk us through, like, how do you get to work with the Olympics?

How, how do you evaluate them, structure them internally, ultimately

determine whether or not they drove the business outcomes or not?

Like you can say, "Hey, I wanna do this," but like how do you even

measure that impact to validate that spend and effort and resources?

Yeah.

A- and that's a great question and, and one I feel so lucky I get to

answer because I worked so long, in my career, and I r- I remember the first

time I ever got to have an ad that was, played during the Super Bowl, and

it was just a really exciting moment.

But now I get to sit on the other side, having owned a relationship

with the NFL and actually being able to say the word Super Bowl,

is something that's so different.

But I, I think a lot of people start with the idea that, you know, wanna partner

with the NFL, what can it do for me?

And where I like to start is, how do I s- what intersection am I sitting at,

and how do I, you know, cross paths in that intersection with something that

is, is not only my brand but is authentic to who my audience is, and, leveraging

that to create the cultural moment.

You know, I, I think people start their, journey looking at these

with kind of three things in mind.

i- can they create credibility I haven't earned yet, which I think

is, is really important and, and one of the reasons that, you know, I had

previously partnered with the NFL.

Do they have access to audiences I can't traditionally reach?

And then can they create content that I traditionally couldn't produce at scale?

And I think once you figure out what one of those things you need

and how the partnership could serve you, then it makes it a lot easier.

In my previous role at, TCL as VP of Marketing, we actually

needed all three of those things.

It was about building the credibility, it was about accessing audiences

that we didn't traditionally have, particularly in an authentic way,

and then getting content that we, we couldn't build ourselves at scale.

And so what was interesting for us in that intersection is that, and I don't know

if you knew this, only about 5% of true fans have ever actually been to a game.

So 95% of all NFL fans actually watch at home on

Yeah.

a friend's TV.

So that was kind of my intersection.

Hmm.

other crazy statistic that we like to talk about, is that of the last,

I believe, 10 years, the hundred most watched TV shows, 96 of those are football

Wow

So it really

That's interesting.

Yeah.

partner there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So w- when you look at these partnerships like the NFL or, or like the Olympics,

are you really kind of searching for a cultural moment that you're attaching to

or maybe creating with them, you know, to help really, really deliver your brand?

It's not just a logo placement, right?

100%.

It's

Yeah.

that cultural moment.

a- and I'll give a, a good example of that partnering with the Olympics.

We did partner with some athletes, because as a, as a company, we really

embrace the inspire greatness as

Mm-hmm.

kind of our intersection that we sat at.

And, we partnered with the Hughes brothers, Jack and Quinn, and we partnered

with them probably four or five months before the Olympics, to really build

relationships and understand, you know, what their motivation was and how they

support the teams and, and how we build this culture together because I think

that's what makes something authentic.

And after doing all of that hard work, Jack won the gold medal

shot, for the Olympic team.

And it was just this really, kind of beautiful moment where all of

these pieces kind of came together.

It's kinda like my old coach would say, "Success is when preparation

meets opportunity," and that's how we set ourselves up for that.

That's great.

How do you plan for a partnership to create business impact

versus brand awareness?

I love that you asked that because as many people know and,

and hear me say this all too much is, measurement is my love language.

Right?

it's, it's really the key that unlocks how we talk

about influencers and how we

Right

and what comes next.

so it-- we really start by running the numbers early on, before the partnership

actually happens, understanding what the scale and the scope actually

looks like, understanding how we can create impact, understanding kind

of where our audience sits and, and where additional, reach comes from.

You know, the hard numbers, are really in lift in sales, shifts in,

in traffic, and potential signups.

it just goes so far beyond what awareness does for this.

But it's also important to think that through that, we're taking

a look at our MMMs to understand, you know, the halo effect that

these kinds of partnerships have.

So it's not awareness, but it's actually measuring how, know, we get

introduced to people and how later on it gets to make conversion, for us.

And, and you just touched on and mentioned one of my favorite things

to kinda get into, and that's around influencers, 'cause I think it really ties

into this part about the conversation.

You know, w- there was a time where influencer marketing was sort

of this experimental thing that marketers were dipping their toe

in and feeling their way around.

But now I, I think it's really become a strong line item that

every CMO defends a budget for.

Do, do you think we've reached that peak influencer stage, yet?

Are, are we losing the authenticity with some influencers?

Or, in some sense, you're starting to hear people say that, "Oh, well,

consumers are catching on that influencers are doing deals," so they're

losing some of that authenticity.

But I, I tend to look at where the dollars flow, and the fact that we're all still

investing in it means it must be working.

And so we're gonna keep doing that.

But o- over the next, you know, let's say 12 months, you know, where, where do you

see brands really focusing in this area?

Is it, is it leaning more towards this, this new kind of creators?

Is it micro-influencers?

Is it building community?

A combination of all that or, or, or is that not quite any of those yet?

That's a really great question, and one that I've been,

a, a part of recently is really defining what that cost looks like.

You know,

Yeah

to your point, I think influencers or the state of

influencers… Let me answer this first.

No, I think

Mm-hmm.

peaked.

I think we're gonna

Okay.

of it.

I

Mm-hmm.

it in, appear in different ways, but, you know, CMOs and, and

really heads of marketing are really being asked to justify that cost, and

it's forcing us to take a discovery and trust tactic and to put it, to compete

with a direct response scorecard right?

So we're taking what an e-commerce, how an e-commerce would evaluate something

and applying that to influencer marketing when we know that that's not what

influencer marketing is designed, to do.

So I think the evolution of influencers, I think, is gonna,

really pop up in two ways.

I think, you know, after, after the last couple of years, it helps us

kind of segment influencers a little bit differently than what we've

tradition- how we've traditionally segmented them, I think it's gonna

really break down into two groups that are gonna be critical for everyone.

the first one is always-on, micro-influencers and UGC.

they're more functional, and they deliver the tactics of, you know,

traditional always-on, with consistent messaging, which I think is gonna be

critical and, and help support kind of reach and frequency modeling.

And then the second group, which I think you touched on too, is

more of affinities or communities.

Yeah.

Yeah

groups, yeah

I think it's… I love TikTok, like ridiculously love it.

I'm a huge consumer of it, I guess you could say, right?

I- I- I'm a struggling participant.

I've been struggling for this event.

But, I find it a completely different type of, of marketing a brand that works today,

than

it used to.

I'm very comfortable with editorial, very comfortable with the polished.

I'm so uncomfortable with the unpolished,

not editorial.

just being able to even get some of these videos or this information, like I'm never

do a get ready with me in the morning.

I'm not going into public without makeup on.

Are you insane?

That is just so not part of my generation.

but I find it so admirable.

I could imagine so many people I follow, they wouldn't be traditional

influencers, like huge influencers.

think that AI, it would be a amazing case that we could bring… Every single

brand could, like, find their people on, like, who those micro-influencers

are now versus trying to do this three years ago like an impossible task.

I, I would… Do you see

more

the connection?

Like, are… you using it?

Are brands using AI to go find their influencers and their

communities and, like, scouring the globe through, through this?

Or

Yeah

just whoever has the most followers?

No, I, I, I'm so glad, you said that because I think influencers

went from how many followers and what are they doing that's

Mm-hmm.

to all of the other characteristics, you know,

audience, location, context.

but now I think with using tools like that, like Creator IQ and partnering with

it, an AI to help, you're getting a more robust list of influencers that can really

better authentically tell your story.

And that's kind of what we talked about with, affinity groups, because

if I wanna have a partnership with the NFL, it doesn't make sense for me

to have a tech sec- expert just talk about the s- features of the product.

I actually need someone who integrates with the NFL that loves it, has

a passion, has its own audience that's NFL related, talk about my

products in relation to the NFL.

So why watching football on a TCL TV is actually better than any other TV.

And that's where you get that authenticity and that context.

But I will say it still takes some test and learn with these influencers to

understand if they can really deliver your message in a really authentic way.

we've had to think about contracts, his- historically, I've had to

think about contracts in almost two parts, like a testing.

Does this work?

Can this work for us authentically?

And then if it does, more long-term partnerships where we're, you know,

consistently communicating or we have kind of those micro moments

that are important for the brand that we're executing the influencers on.

It's like all of Gen Z are like born actors.

100%.

Like, I…

has great lighting.

How?

Right, yeah.

Everyone's running by great lighting.

Like we should all… No overhead lighting should exist.

I know, right?

I'm like watching some of these, I'm like, "So did you actually like go

set up the camera, then take all your stuff back outside and then pretend

to come in?" Like, this is effort.

This is thought process.

We're making mini movies

100%.

And I'll

Yeah

is to watch influencers that have a get ready with me that start at

like 4:00 in the morning, which means they have to get up at fi- or 3:40,

set up a camera so then they can record their phone, set an alarm at 4:00

o'clock and then… And I, I love it.

That's, that's commitment

I'm just, I am so impressed.

I'm so impressed.

if you tuned into one of our first year shows, I was so anti-influencer.

I'm like, "You're paying an influencer 25K for a post, and you can't get… You

can't your employee an extra buck an hour

that's literally working for you every day?"

So I,

point

and now I'm like, okay, I see a whole entire talent

scheme, the effort, the resources, the thought process, and, like,

definitely set of its own.

but we couldn't… We… It was, like, really hard to measure.

Like, do you convert?

Are you converting?

What's your conversion rate?

Is that s- are we still measuring by conversion rate, or is it, are we

able to track really good now so that there's, like, a myriad of KPIs that

are going towards, or digital TV, interactive things, like, through this

whole digital side of marketing can we, I mean, can we measure without somebody

scanning a QR code on the television?

You know, we can, a- and I think people do it, but I

don't think, we all do it enough.

it's relatively expensive, to do.

A- and I think-- So performance metrics are always going to

have a place for all of us.

Impressions, click-through rates, traffic, et cetera, I think

is still gonna play a role.

However, I think there are a couple of things, particularly for influencers,

that we really take a look at.

the first one is brand lift studies.

So when you're partnering with you know, Instagram, for example, setting up

those brand lift studies to understand how these influencers themselves are

creating that impact, which is a, a incredibly smart and helpful…

I've, I've done them for many, many years, and they get more advanced.

They really help me understand the audiences.

And then, messaging pull-through, so making sure that they're getting the

right messages that we're working with influencers to kind of seed.

And then all of that really should, you know, be baked into what our

MMMs look for because those capture halo effect and diminishing returns.

So we have a really, a, a much better sense of how someone who's creating

influence, for us in kind of that upper mid-funnel creating trust and how they

may have engaged with someone four or five months ago to making that impact,

today so that we're, we're better to attribute, those kinds of tactics.

Because to your point, if we always use a last click or a last touch, we'll never

prove the value of who influencers are and how they're, they're building brands.

Let's talk about budgets

If y- if I'm running, one of our listeners, running a $200 million

brand, how should they think about allocating dollars across upper funnel?

performance creators, retail media, emerging channels, search, Google.

Is Facebook s- is Facebook even still a channel?

I, I don't know.

Okay, f-

I mean, how much should a brand like realistically need

to spend on TikTok to even matter?

I mean, I just, I think a lot of, a lot of people don't know what other people

are spending and, sometimes this is kind of like a reality check moment if

you're not spending X, like you're kind of just throwing it down the toilet.

It's a- that's a great question, and to your point,

I think Facebook is criminally underappreciated right now.

I think the audiences that have the money to spend there are

Hmm.

Hmm

and there is opportunity to influence o- on Facebook.

And I think it's a different kind of content particular for that audience.

When you talk about, you know, millennials and the need to have something

perfectly curated, that still exists and lives on, you know, Meta platforms.

And so I think

Yeah, I mean, I don't consider, I don't consider, like, there's

like Facebook and then there's Instagram

Yeah

Yeah

the Meta like I, I get some of the Instagram.

Mean people are there, but they're pretty

pretty, but people are mean.

TikTok, everything's not so pretty, but everybody's so nice

So nice.

yeah.

Yes.

A- and I think TikTok's a, it's a much different animal when you think

about, you know, who that audience is, how they consume content.

But I, I think some of the bigger differences is that Facebook has had 20

years of refining how to segment audiences and go after them and think about how

messaging is delivered, and TikTok's in its infancy, still around how content

connects with, with those audiences.

and so you have to be a little bit, more scrappy, I guess, when

you kind of create it and, and that pays off in a TikTok space.

So if you allocated a stack full of cash for a $200 million

brand, does that change-- does that, like, allocation dramatically change

when you turn a million into a billion?

yes, a hundred percent.

I think the big difference is, and if I, if I were to break that kind of

two hundred million up, I would put thirty to fifty percent of it in that

upper funnel consideration, phase.

And it depends on kind of the existing equity and the perception of the

brand, how I would allocate that.

then I would put another twenty to thirty percent really in that

consideration conversion part of that journey, really driving that sellout.

And again, that really depends on what the brand is.

And then the rest I would put into testing, right?

With two hundred million, I think there's enough money to do some of

that interesting testing that we all wanna do on emerging platforms

and with influencers at different experiences and events and partnerships.

So how I'd split that up.

But if I went from, think you said two hundred million to a

a billion.

Dollars,

Yeah

then I, I think that shifts, pretty dramatically.

I start to look at bigger partnerships, and owning the relationships with

some of those, like, and, without saying budget, but like the NFL, for

example, really owning what that looks like and bringing that to, to life.

and then taking a look at different audiences, audiences that I haven't

traditionally reached that I should and could be influencing kind of on that, that

TAM level versus that SAM and SOM level.

Like who should I be connecting with?

Because I really think if you're not spending more than twenty-five percent

in that upper kind of mid-funnel, then going to lose out in the next two years.

I think you have to be building that upper funnel constantly, or you're not

going to have people to drop into your bucket for that consideration conversion

when the cycle of buying happens.

Mm-hmm.

in tech, that's been six months to seven years.

it just depends on what types of technology we're selling.

So

Cole, Hearing you talk about that, I mean, I, I guess, how

do you balance that tension between there's that brand awareness you're

dealing with today, whether it's with the partnerships, whether it's the social

commerce side of things, versus when d- can you prove the measurable return?

A- and, like, one, one example I'm hearing more and more brands talk about

is that as they grow their presence and do more on TikTok, it's not just

how much they can sell on TikTok Shop, it's impacting, you know, what they're

selling in Amazon's marketplace.

It's what they're selling in a Walmart or, or everywhere, basically

because they're being seen, right?

so how do you justify when you're trying to allocate that budget and

someone's asking, "Well, where's the return on that?" And, and like you

just said, you may have to-- You, you may be dealing with, "Well, I'm

building it today, but the return's really gonna pay out next year."

Yeah, that's a conversation we have, often, in that marketing space,

and I think there's two things that we've done, and, and we talked a little

bit about it, is, is setting up a, a really strong and bringing that team in

to help educate people on methodologies for how it's calculated, including the

halo effect these things have and, and how we measure in those timeframes.

But then two, setting up kind of a, a multi-touch attribution model

that gives us just a touch more real-time view of how those things

are impacting, the overall spend.

So at least we're be- able to allocate some portion

to

kind of influencers quickly, without having to see some of that and

being able to justify some of that cost.

but I think what we've done, and I think specifically in, in recent roles of mine,

has been, been able to see that payoff because we've made that investment and now

we're looking at growth in the category, and w- we're one of the only organizations

that's up in the category, when you were taking a look at the numbers.

and so I can't share roughly how much, but everyone else who's declining, we

made that investment and we've started

Hmm.

on

Yeah

yes, and then it's that long-term, like, are we seeing lift?

Yeah

really, really see it is to isolate it,

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

that's harder.

So we've been exploring ways of what geo, geo-targeting and geo-fencing

that thing could be, so we can kind

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

then see what lift looks like on it.

Yeah, yeah.

I guess at, at that level you're, you're kind of taking these tactics and

you're really elevating them to be a core part of a higher strategy, right?

And when you can--

I feel like when you can define it in terms of the strategy, then you've kind

of earned the ability to make it long term

Exactly.

so I wanna come back to something you, you mentioned earlier

about changing roles and, and where marketing organizations are, are headed.

'cause we, we've mentioned AI a bunch of times and how that's changing things

and why it's changing things, but where, where are you feeling agentic

AI and AI agents are fitting into the equation in the marketing organization?

Is, is it a matter of, like, how many digital employees do we need to think

about that are, are gonna be part of this marketing organization of the

future in, in the next few years?

Yeah.

I, I mean, simply put, I think it's going to be, you know, human-in-the-loop models,

Mm-hmm.

to be people managing agents,

Yeah

to be identifying agents to, you know, take on some of these tactics.

And then, you know, the culture setters and the measurement or, and data

management individuals really helping lead that charge with a few always-on

strategic people that can translate the business need and objective to, you know,

language that helps our agentic models run

Yeah.

Yeah

Yep, that's gonna be the key

Yes, 100%.

And I think, you know, w-we said this, it's gonna be less around

having your traditional siloed, individuals, your person who's social

media, and your PR person, and more around how do you build these cohorts

Yeah

the problem that needs

Hmm.

Yeah.

with less people, less bureaucracy, I think

you're gonna see speed become

Mm-hmm.

biggest, our biggest opportunities, to hit

Yeah

And with that, to build on it, I think you're going to see

much smaller companies for the first time being able to take on those

larger enterprise organizations,

Yeah.

Yeah.

love coming

Mm-hmm.

all of the

Right.

Right.

is our time to

Yeah, it's her moment, yeah

Yeah.

So I'm really excited about that

if you ran into a 25-year-old marketer that said,

"Hey, I want your job someday,"

Mm-hmm

skills would you tell them that they should be

developing over the next five years?

is there something they should stop doing immediately?

Easy.

super easy.

The, the top three things that I would always give somebody is, one, learn data.

data is important for me.

It's where I started a big piece of my career.

But not, not only understand how to manage it and store it and govern it,

but also manage what it says in a story.

Like, how can you put the pieces of it together to help build the insights that

are really important to move the business?

Number two, we've talked about this, and Casey, you're a master at it, is taste.

How do you learn taste?

What's good?

What's bad?

How do we understand what's trendy versus what's stylish?

And being able to talk to all of those things so that when you're

building that for a brand and an organization, you really understand,

does my brand identity sit, but how do I evaluate the work that's coming?

And then lastly is, being able to really talk to real customers.

You know, as much as I am a huge proponent for AI, I think it's still important

that we talk to people and understand what the customer really needs and

wants and how, how we process stuff.

You know, I tell this to my teams all the time that we're all just a group of

individuals that have experienced life through different lenses, and I want

all of those points of view because all of those are really what helps us

decide good looks like, and so, and, and

Yeah

So, those are the three things I would give someone.

If I had to say stop, there's two things that I think are really critical.

One is, is stop chasing platforms.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

just be the Instagram person or just the TikTok person.

Yeah

have a sense of what transformation looks like to drive impact.

And then two, stop waiting for permission for AI.

Start using it as fast as possible because it's here.

And again, that's why I've taken this step to really focus on what integration

looks like versus, I say this term, bolting it onto the business to

Hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah

If you had to put your reputation on one prediction,

what's the biggest shift in marketing over the next 12 months that most

leaders aren't taking seriously?

Oh, that's a really good one.

One, I think it's how AI is really going to impact org, i-in org.

I,

Mm-hmm.

think people are all talking about it.

I think everyone's talking about it.

Even my mom in Cody, Wyoming, the rodeo capital of the world, where tradition's

a pillar of the community, is talking about AI and how it's gonna grow.

And I, I don't think, you know, everyone's giving enough attention to how it's

gonna evolve and h- then how we real-- reskill our teams, to really manage that.

Because I don't think it's taking jobs, I think it's just reskilling them to

manage, you know, and have the taste

Is there one thing out there that you're, like, super stoked about?

Like a favorite tool, favorite type of technology, a favorite use case of AI?

Is there something that just like, don't know, jazz hands?

I'm always jazz hands.

yeah.

A- what AI is actually doing right now when it comes to creative

and video, I think is incredible because it's scaling the work.

Like, we've never had that capability before in a way that

is, is just… it looks so real.

and what I'm excited about is, and I think that's coming up, is we're

going to start to see legislation that kind of starts to paint some more

guardrails around h- how AI is used, and

Mm-hmm.

the opportunity where we see a lot of smart, creative

people actually dig in and do the work that's changing the business.

So when you now have these parameters, you now have to think inside of a

smaller box to still get the impact.

And so I think we're gonna see, more of that, and I'm really excited about

it, which I don't think anyone's ever said is more legislation, is

Well, I mean,

That's right, yeah.

Yeah.

in on a regular basis, you know, I've fallen in love with a

lot of certain things that are AI that are economically impossible to produce,

Hmm.

right

Like I love AI Nike.

R

I love AI Nike.

Yeah

with

someone at Nike is watching all of this because these

shoes that I'm seeing are incredible

Incredible.

Yeah.

Yeah

I just fell in love with another house that even think

Jeff Bezos could afford to build.

Like

Oh my God.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah

it's, it's ruining real product

I- I- It's like the downsides of when we say you can, you can

use AI to, to imagine anything you want

eh, junk.

My expectations, I

Your luxury expectation's gone even higher, an even higher bar.

because I was like, "Oh my God, I've never seen anything that

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah.

with that

the video

Yeah

good and it's, it, I felt like, I feel like you can… There's a

level of quality that so many companies couldn't afford, to the point where, like,

solo founders can aff- if they have the vision and the mindset to, to use the

tools, you, they can create something that seriously looks like a movie.

Yeah.

production

Yeah

It, it levels the playing field and it puts an emphasis

on good ideas versus who's the

Right.

Yeah.

And I, I

Yeah, it's like we've solved the how part.

we've

Right.

Yeah.

way of putting that.

And

Yeah

challenger work for so long, I, I'm even s- excited about the video when

you go shoot something, how you can…

If you missed it in a take, it, right?

You missed it.

10 years ago, you'd

Yeah.

Right.

That's right.

Yeah.

Yeah

we can leverage AI to kind of help rebuild what that

Mm-hmm.

you

Right.

to make it sound and

Right

to be able to scale quickly the things

Yeah.

gonna happen

Yeah, I think it, it really does solve the how part,

like I said, but it also kind of solves the scale issue, right?

'Cause it allows more people, organizations to scale that

couldn't afford to before.

But I, I guess I wanna ask you, 'cause we've brought

There's a couple of things I know you've kind of circled back to in,

in the conversation I think are super important, and that's around, like,

taste, especially in, in creative, right?

And you've mentioned how that's the one thing AI doesn't do yet,

is it doesn't deliver the, the taste factor that, that humans do.

Is that what you think will separate the companies that successfully adapt

quickly from the ones that, that are, are gonna struggle as they adopt

more AI into their organizations?

Or do you think there's something else?

One, I, I think, the immediate success is taste.

I think you nailed it right there.

number two is really, integration of AI.

Mm-hmm.

I kind of mentioned that too, a lot of companies are using it to

write copy or to think about, you know, resizing creative, in reality, it can

do so much more for an organization.

You know, I think the test there is, and if you're using it very well, is

you took AI away from everyone tomorrow,

Mm-hmm.

would it break the system, or would

Mm-hmm.

back to doing what they're already doing?

And I think that's a

Hmm.

kind of

Yeah

in that space.

And, and if it's everyone would go back, you've actually just attached

it to an existing marketing plan

Right

But if it breaks the system, then you're getting somewhere, right?

And then you can start

Yeah

of, of where that sits.

So

Yeah, you've really transformed it.

with the structure, yep,

Yeah.

for how

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, that's a great point.

A great point.

Well, Cole, I, I thank you so much for joining us today.

This was exactly the kind of fun conversation we were hoping to have and

wanted to have, kind of really getting beyond the headlines around, what's

happening with marketing, especially with your experience where you've been, and

I, I love how you've brought the idea of always working with the challenger

brands and, and, what we were just talking about with taste around AI.

Those are all things that I think are so critical for the, just the future

of marketing roles in, in general

I, I've loved talking about this.

and thank you so much.

It's really exciting

Yeah.

Well, I, if anyone…

spilling the tea

Exactly.

Always.

Always, yeah.

That's what we're here for.

Cole, if anybody in the audience wants to reach out to you, what's

the best way for them to do that?

they can reach out to me on my LinkedIn, backslash

Cole Moir, or, my personal email.

I, I love to answer questions.

it's just Cole period Moir at Gmail

All right.

Excellent.

We'll have that in the show notes

Yeah.

Amazing.

Thank you

Check.

Check, check, check.

Check.

It's a wrap

Amazing.

Thanks, Cole

Thank you so much

If you loved this episode, drop us a five-star rating and review

on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or Goodpods.

And if you're watching us on YouTube, like and subscribe before you go.

I'm Casey Golden.

Follow us on LinkedIn, Bluesky, Threads, and Instagram,

and subscribe to our Substack for highlights and bonus content.

For transcripts and guest info, visit retailrazor.com.

I'm Ricardo Belmar.

Thanks for joining us on Retail Transformers, part of

the Retail Razor Podcast Network.

Until next time, stay sharp, be bold,

and keep transforming retail.

This is the Retail Razor Retail Transformers.