The Leadership Capacity Gap

What if your biggest problem in retail right now isn't

the technology, the economy, or even your customers' expectations?

What if it's you?

Our guest today, Louisa Loran, former exec at Google,

Maersk, Diageo, and now one of the most sought-after executive advisors

on the planet, says most leaders are mistaking busyness for progress

and using AI to automate broken experiences faster than ever before.

She's got a name for what actually separates leaders

who thrive from those who stall.

And yeah, she wrote the book about it too.

The book is Leadership Anatomy in Motion, and this

conversation, well, it's going to be uncomfortable in the best possible way.

And stay with us

Welcome to the Retail Transformers podcast, part of the

number one indie podcast network for retail, where we break down the

ideas, the leaders, and the bold moves reshaping the future of retail.

I'm Ricardo Belmar

And I'm Casey Golden.

Today's conversation is one we've been looking forward to for quite a while.

We're diving into something that sits right at the

intersection of luxury, leadership, and the reality most companies don't

want to admit: the gap between what customers expect and what organizations

are actually built to deliver

Because here's the thing, everyone wants the margins,

the growth, the loyalty, but very few are willing to rethink how their

businesses actually operate to earn it.

So today we're getting into what's really changing across retail

technology and customer behavior, and more importantly, why so many

transformational efforts stall even when the strategy looks great on paper

Our latest retail transformer is Louisa Loran, advisor

to CEOs and senior leadership teams navigating high-stakes decisions, and

someone who's worked across companies like Google, Maersk, and Diageo.

Louisa has done the thing most executives only put on a slide deck.

She's actually led transformation.

At Google, she launched a billion-dollar supply chain solutions business.

At Maersk, she helped co-author the strategy that doubled the company's share

price and pivoted it from traditional shipping to integrated logistics.

And before all that, she was building iconic brands at Moët Hennessy and Diageo.

She's a board member and executive advisor, and she's

been named to the Thinkers 50 Radar 2026, which is basically the

Oscars for management thinkers.

Expect the people on it to actually have useful things to say.

Her work focuses on what she calls Leadership Anatomy In Motion.

Not more theory, not more frameworks, but how leaders actually move,

decide, and create advantage when the path forward isn't obvious.

Her book titled, of course, Leadership Anatomy in Motion, is less of a

leadership manual and more of a mirror most executives probably

weren't expecting to look into.

This is gonna be a conversation about where the market is

going, where companies are getting stuck, and what it actually takes to lead and

transform when there's no clear playbook.

Now, before we get into that, let me tell you about Retail Club, our sponsor

of the Retail Razor Podcast Network.

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Thank you to Retail Club for helping us bring you this podcast and the

other shows in our podcast network.

With that said, let's get into it.

Here's our conversation with our latest retail transformer, Louisa

Loran, strategic advisor and author of Leadership Anatomy in Motion

Louisa, welcome to the Retail Transformers podcast.

We're really glad to have you here with us today

Great to be here

It's really exciting to have someone with your background

to share your experience, career path, and insights on this show.

So we are matchy-matchy, and let's get this fancy conversation going.

Exactly.

And we didn't coordinate.

I know, right?

Yeah.

There you go.

We know what spring means.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Well, you've had a pretty unique path across

luxury logistics and tech.

I feel like we're still considered unicorns, but what pulled you

into this space in the first place, and what's kept you here?

Well, yes, yes, it does, it does seem unique from the

outside, but, but for me, I think there are some common patterns.

I think for all of them, it was a matter of, of learning skills and capabilities

and bringing these capabilities to where they were complementary to what

was already there in the first place.

So, I said the, the, the earliest part of my career was built in, in Moet

Hennessy and Diageo, understanding brands and consumers and, uh, l- of

course, the, the, the world of luxury and, and understanding how to create a

perception of both a product and a brand.

And, and I moved… I grew up in a world of marketing and, and commercial

businesses, but moved more and more into how does that actually make you

run your business in a wider sense?

How does it influence operations, supply chains, rewards, all these type of things?

And then I moved to a world of operations in, in Maersk.

It's a very highly values-driven company, of course founded on asset optimization

with ports, terminals, et cetera.

But what I could see was that there was a huge amount of access to knowledge

about global trade and about how to support customer supply chain.

So those skills that I had could be significantly valuable to that business,

and was fortunate to be there at a point in time where there was a need for

exact that change and transformation.

So similarly, when I then moved into Google, it was once again

saying I, I had been responsible for, for digital platforms, digital

businesses, et cetera, et cetera.

But seeing that from the inside and knowing how to create the bridge

between a, a tech world and a more h- let's say, traditional legacy world

was hugely valuable for both sides.

So getting on the inside there, building solutions, technology, data solutions,

AI, et cetera, and running a, a global industry there helped actually

create value on both sides again.

So for me, what I have done throughout my career, irrespective of whether

it's one or the other industry, is, is be curious about where does

change happen and what's coming next.

Make sure that it wasn't just, let's say, a pie in the sky, but

quite structurally go after it.

And for surely most effectively, find the courage within the leaders

of the businesses so that they could pursue it, and they could go after

it and own it after I left again.

Yeah, that was a really in- interesting way to put it.

I like how you mentioned how, those leaders have to find the courage to really

pursue that and continue down that path.

It's one thing to set up, an elaborate transformation and have the creativity

to do it, but you have to con- sustain it and keep it going or,

or it can potentially fall apart.

So o- one of the things I like about, we mentioned in the intro, we talked a little

bit about your, your book and some of the work you do as a strategic advisor, and

you've-- I've heard you say that the real constraint right now isn't necessarily

demand, it's leadership capacity.

So I really want to ask you, what, what are leaders missing about

the moment we're in right now?

And is it a matter of in, in o- overconfidence versus or being

unprepared, or is it something different?

Well, I think I, I've chosen to learn throughout my

career to challenge my context, to challenge my thinking in that way,

putting myself into new settings.

But, but I do encounter time and time again that there is a let's say

an industry narrative we are best within this, instead of actually

saying, what are the additional per- perspectives I need to bring in?

So I put myself not just in the shoes of my customers, but also

my partners and my suppliers.

So, so therefore, the, the, the, let's say the chasing of where is

the immediate demand today, what are the headlines telling me, is often

creating a, a, an environment where people forget what they are best at

themselves and how they actually make that relevant to the people around them.

So I spend a lot of time with the c- the, the companies I work with today

simply just being clear on who are you and who do you want to be in the future.

And then we can

The who are you

yeah.

gets me every time.

I'm like… it just came down to ridiculous things of changing your logo.

I'm like, are you forgetting who you are?

yeah.

W- w- what are you trying to tell me with this change besides the fact that you

placed a new individual in this role who felt they had a need to make a difference

and therefore they changed the logo?

Yeah, like a font is not gonna fix your business.

Oh, no.

No, and I think especially in, in current time where, where let's say the

movement across channels is changing people have access to a lot more

information, et cetera, et cetera, that you need to be incredibly clear

on who you are or it will all be blurred and people will not choose you.

And I think especially right now where there's such a huge degree of change

in the world and trust is declining across every parameter, especially

in the developed world, if you can't trust those you buy from or what you

buy, w- you are simply not, let's say, making the most of that potential

relationship with your customer

Yeah, and I think that, that all is, it's really

permeates from leadership.

Yeah.

Somebody who doesn't, isn't obsessed with the brand, doesn't

love the brand, doesn't have that affinity, I think it's really hard to

work in some of these retail companies.

Or just company today in general, if you don't have the brand affinity

for the company and believe in it you can feel that in leadership

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

And I think also

all the way down

Mm-hmm.

all the way down, yes, at every single corner,

in the basement, everywhere.

But I think that the… What we're also seeing is that, that the change and

the tenure of leaders is, is the tenure is going down now, and people are just

being replaced and replaced and replaced instead of actually saying like, "What

is the legacy I am responsible for now, and how am I gonna contribute to that?"

It's okay to say, "I also expect in this tenure to look better on these parameters

because I'm carrying this responsibility in this time. I need to prove these

things." But you are a chapter in a book.

You are not the book yourself.

So I, I definitely see that, that, the, the trigger happiness on, on implementing

something to prove that activity instead of saying how I'm bettering

this legacy and making it clearer for people to engage with i- is unfortunately

something we see a lot right now

Yeah.

Do, do you see that often in, in the work you do with, with w- with enterprises

about, you know, when you have, I don't wanna say entrenched leadership, but you

know, a, a very legacy leadership that's been around for a very long time versus

organizations you go into where they just had a leadership change, you know, and

they're intent- with intention, right?

Looking to transform things, looking to change things, and

sort of disrupt themselves.

Do you do you run into these extremes a lot, or is there, is there a

middle that, that you're o- often working with in between those two?

I think there are good cases and bad cases on both sides.

It's not one, one perfect model, but I think it's the principle

of are you willing to unlearn?

So if you come from the outside, are you willing to learn what's

special about this business?

Why do people choose to work there?

Why do people choose to buy there?

And what is it that you need to nurture?

If you have been there for a long time on the inside, are you

creating the environment where people can come challenge you?

Are you making sure that the people that you hire to challenge you are

actually not, let's say, dependent on your long-term revenue stream

into their business so that they just cr- create that ongoing dependency?

So I, I think when I look at businesses, it's, it's, it's old or new, that

same lens, and then I spend quite a lot of time understanding who are

the change makers in this business.

Every business has a passionate individual who just wants to challenge.

I'm not saying they're always right or wrong, but there's

typically some interesting spaces within what they challenge.

Are they getting the right context to deploy their thinking

into solving the problems?

Do they get the right sponsorship?

When do we notice when someone starts following them?

Do we, for instance, reorganize the business so it supports our future

strategy instead of our past strategy?

There's a lot of, of, of let's say, transformative maturity you can read

from who is in which roles and where.

So if you're saying, "This is the new business, this is where we want

to grow," but the person who has always been most respected stays in

the old arm, you're sending mixed

sending the wrong message.

Yeah.

Yeah

so why don't you go to that individual and say, "What would

it take for you to make that jump?

We understand it's a bigger risk.

It's a smaller revenue number most likely.

But is it 'cause you don't believe that it's gonna happen?

In which case we need to have that conversation and whether you have good

considerations we need to challenge into the strategy, or is it because

you don't wanna be part of the future story of this transformation?"

So I quite quickly get to the individual motivations and mobilize people

towards the change instead of just looking at it from a, a balance sheet

Yeah.

Right

Yeah, we've al- we've also gone through a, a… The shift on,

on culture where at the brands, nobody wanted to kn- it wasn't safe to stand out.

No

You kind of wanted to keep your head down and choose your battles.

And standing out was not necessarily a great thing for your career.

But now I think it is becoming more acceptable to be that challenger

in a room and almost necessary.

But it does take a specific leader to create that space that I need you at

100% or 110%, don't shy away from things.

But I do have to say I remember So many people being like, "You're crazy. You keep

challenging in every…" Pick a medium.

You can't do all of them

know?

But you have to have a level of confidence or power to

know, like, not gonna fire me."

"And if you want this done, I'm volunteering to do it."

Yeah.

Yeah

know?

But I think it's, it's starting to become acceptable now, and now it's up

for the leaders to have that change that they can also, too, be that catalyst

Absolutely, and I think you're right that, that sometimes actually

it's, it's a privilege of the younger generations to be the challenger and the

leader wants to be it themselves, but they have this amount of responsibility that

they, they, they simply don't dare to.

I mean, there's no doubt I've been a huge challenger throughout my career

as well, but, but I've also learned, like if I get a, I don't know, a list

of tasks, I do them and then challenge.

It is not challenge instead of taking responsibility for what I need to do.

No one wants that because then you move the problem to someone else.

But saying, "I've delivered this and I've come up with a better way to do

it in the future." And, and I spend quite a lot of time with younger people

who are like, "But, but, but, but…"

I'm like, you need to create the space for people to actually absorb your ideas,

whereas otherwise you're just pushing the, the, the problem to someone else.

But I, I agree with you that, that the courage to speak up is essential

for change, but I think that we, we should never underestimate the, the

need to define the context right because people don't necessarily

know what problem they need to solve.

And, and I, I for instance often talk about how at, at junior level you

know 100% of your specific issue, but it may not be the important

thing to solve at current time.

So as these mid-manager- middle management leaders, our responsibility would have

at that point have time have been to say, " I understand what you're saying,

but my task is to connect it to this other function, and how would you

use your great thinking in that way?"

At the top level of the management, of course what they need to do is saying,

"I understand that you've solved this problem for me, but we're actually

moving at a different pace now, we're reacting to a different problem, so

help me understand how it suits into that new context." And I think the,

the principle of, of not saying "Thank you, I'm gonna park you in some shelf

because it's not solving my problem," but acknowledge the interest, acknowledge the

capability of challenging, but give them the context where they can be relevant.

Yeah, I think that's great advice.

Mm-hmm.

Luxury used to be more of a category.

Now it feels like a standard expectation for everyone.

And I know that everyone has not had a true luxury retail

experience or brand experience.

So what's changed, and where did these new expectations come from?

And why are so many classically non-luxury brands why are they put-- why have they

not caught up to just a level of service to try to meet any of these expectations?

Yeah

is there, is there s- why is there still a disconnect?

Luxury's been around for over 100 years.

The recipe is there.

Yeah.

Well, well, the recipe, yes, but, but I think this is the point.

It's, it's not a matter of ticking some boxes.

When, when I started my career with Moët Hennessy, the, the first couple of

weeks I was there, I was sent to live in a castle in France and experience

what it was to have that private chef.

I was allowed to go to the cellars of Dom Pérignon.

I was allowed to visit the cellars of the, the the 100-year-old cognacs that

I could blend into my own blend so I could learn how that craft was actually

so unique and so grounded in history and storytelling and all these things.

I felt it.

I experienced it.

I got so respect.

Sorry, what did you say?

You've got to fall in love.

I go, "You've got to fall in love."

It's completely falling in love, and you understand

how every decision you make has to measure up to that level.

and therefore, those who haven't, let's say, understood that every time they

do something for these brands, they are either enhancing or diluting that picture,

they haven't understood what luxury is.

And another thing I think that to your specific question of what has

changed, of course, with, with access to information, with social media,

with let's say, filters galore, all of a sudden things look accessible.

We can travel the world on our phone.

We can visit all these nightclubs that most people would never, ever experience.

We can have a breakfast that looks like it's created by a Michelin star chef when

most people have never actually tried it.

So they think they understand luxury 'cause they've seen a picture of it, and

they may be able to dream about it, but it's not the same thing as the scent,

as the detail, as the smile, as the, the waiter's attire or anything like that.

So I think the, the, the accessibility has made people believe they could,

but it's not the same thing as you can.

So scarcity versus accessibility is the, the, the challenge

that's going on right now.

And I think also because there have been a lot of projo- products that have done

line extensions and said, "Actually, we need to grow, so we're gonna make

a perfume with our brand name on it," and people can kind of pretend they're

in the world of luxury, but you're not.

And many have moved away from that as well.

I think we're also, of course, from a, let's say, more socio- socioeconomic

perspective right now, seeing that many of those who have touched the world

of luxury are now being cut off from it again because of the, the financial

situation, and people don't want that.

So they, they kind of make something new and they put a badge on there and

they say it's luxury, but it's not.

So, the heritage, the scarcity it's in the know

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, it's interesting to me too, there are so many brands that

want to create that sort of sen- feeling of a luxury experience.

But to your point, maybe it isn't necessarily because what they're

delivering isn't that entire experience.

It's just that one aspect of it that, that tries to get their customer

to feel like they're getting there or, or truly experiencing it.

But I, I feel like sometimes e- even the brands that do that maybe fall

into the trap themselves that they now think that they are delivering

that luxury experience because they've almost rebranded themselves this way,

and so now the expectations change.

They expect that they're gonna get the luxury margins but they

haven't really invested, right, in, in the true experience.

So wh- where, where do you-- I mean, how does that disconnect usually show up?

How, why, how do we get there?

How are the brands getting there, and is there like a s- is there a

decision or something that they hit along the path that sets them in the

wrong direction for that expectation?

Well, I think, I think it is like many businesses, at some point you're

like, "Oh, this is okay. I can get with- away with this." But too many of carving

of the corners dilute the picture in full.

I'll give an example.

So last summer Luca de Meo became the CEO of Kering, the second

world's largest luxury group.

Well, I hope it's the second.

It's one of the biggest, I will say that much.

And

put those on a list numbered.

respected, global, big, impressive, lots of famous

brands, Gucci, da, da, da, da, da.

The point being that he came from Groupe Renault, so automotive,

largely known for mid-market cars.

There was a huge backlash in the media saying, "What does he know about l-

luxury? He's not right for this. We need someone who's known it," et cetera.

And in general, I would say that is probably a fair concern.

However, I happen to have had the privilege of working with Luca when

he was at, at Groupe Renault, and he is a very, very respectful person,

someone who respects brands a lot.

And what he did at Renault was go in and say, "Actually, what is

it that this company has, and how do I protect what we're good at?

How do I respect the fact that our customers can't afford luxury,

but we're a mid-market brand?

How do I understand what's differentiating, and how do I partner

to scale all the other elements?" So it's, it's more a matter of respect than

necessarily having spent all your life in a ca- in, in a certain industry that

makes me believe that he will certainly be able to be successful there as well,

exactly as he's, as he was at Renault.

So it comes back to that, that legacy of respect and, and responsibility that

you understand what you carry while you're there that makes the difference.

Whereas coming in and saying, "I can cut more costs I can get more

reach," is, is not understanding the, the, the game you're playing.

And, and I would say again, to me, this is, this is as said, what I have chosen

to learn with my career jumps from one industry to the other, the, the, the

rule book of one industry, many people assume that it's the same across others.

It is not.

But what, what one can do is you can learn to tr- to understand what

motivates that other industry and therefore become r- more relevant to it.

It's not rocket science, but it ca- creates it, it, it

demands an active repositioning

of, of someone else's context to see how you can be relevant in that

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, it's a, it's a great point because you have been working across

the luxury space into logistics and, and of course technology with Google.

What, what are some of the patterns that you see that are showing up that

e- each one can learn from the other to make their, make their businesses

better that maybe is something most executives just don't, don't normally see?

Well, I, I, I will, I will say that, that the, the m- the

most important one is, is understand what are the, the motivations and,

and w- where do they have their revenues coming from and, and how…

what are they trying to optimize for.

That's, let's say, from a business perspective.

But actually, some of this also is what became the foundation of the,

the four behaviors that I put in, into the book that I, I published.

So this was gathered across the learnings of, of all of my career, and

in, in short, there are four behaviors that I have truly seen differentiate

those who manage change and, and, and grow above their industry the best,

and that is envisioning ambitiously expanding with curiosity, steering

decisively, and embodying with presence.

And we can go through all four of them, but to answer your question,

steering decisively is something you're typically very good at if

you are a global legacy business.

You have optimized, you have done global, local, regional, you have scrutinized your

cost, you have visited your processes, you have done clear communication.

You've gone through all of those, so you can steer quite effectively.

Versus if you are in a tech environment, you have probably envisioned ambitiously

by nature because you entered the market with a dream, with an ability

to say, "I'm gonna shape something new that isn't there right now, and

I'm gonna be relevant in a way that people didn't even know about before."

A lot of tech companies are also great about at expanding with curiosity.

So Google is one example of this.

It's an open business.

It's a platform business.

It's built on collective intelligence.

We make everyone accessible, and we can see what comes from it.

So all the, the thinking of building microservices and, and having people

create products that can later scale is, is very much of that nature.

Interestingly, the fourth one embodying with presence, I don't

think is, let's say, special to one type of company or not.

That depends really on exactly do you know how you can be

relevant in a future era as well?

And some of the luxury brands are brilliant at this.

They know exactly what did it mean to be classical in the 1770s.

What does it mean to still be relevant today?

And, and that is not about holding on to the past, but it is knowing

what is culture today and what are the things that are supportive of

my brand but not differentiating.

So, so in that way, I have, let's say, s- extracted these from different

types of companies, and none of them are, are perfect, none of them are

completely wrong, but it's my desire to inspire people to learn from each other

and therefore be s- more successful.

Do you find that organizations in different segments,

maybe apart from luxury, I mean, I would imagine they're gonna have some of their

executives will be stronger in, in one or two of those behaviors versus the others.

But you know, if you go back to a, a mid-market brand, for example,

do, do they tend to struggle more with that, the fourth one or, or is

there, a struggle somewhere else?

Well, I think let's say a mid-market brand would typically not be

the ones that are envisioning ambitiously.

They've seen someone else create the market and they're like, "Let

me join," which is absolutely fine, but it just means that someone

else is defining your ceiling.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

out of something if you have not, let's say, s- defined it

Yeah, if you haven't defined it, yeah

Exactly.

So, so they are typically there and, and then some of them are very good at saying,

"I can stand on the shoulders of what others have built and, and that's how

I'm only gonna differentiate here, but I'm gonna partner with everyone else and

therefore I'm gonna be a fast second."

Mm-hmm.

I think you can embody really well as a mid-market brand if

you are clear in your proposition, but if your proposition is, "I'm the

cheaper alternative," or, "I'm the smaller alternative," et cetera, then,

then you are not gonna have that brand equity and that IP that means that you

are future relevant and future sure.

At the same time, I see a lot of businesses where leaders come in

and they don't understand what it means for them to embody a change.

So they write a strategy, they structure a team, they see these other KPIs, this

is what we're gonna do, and then they say, "See you over there," like, "Go

do," instead of actually saying, "What, what do I need to do differently?"

Let's say if before if it was a knowledge-based business, you may

have been the smartest person in the room and therefore you became

the leader, but if all of a sudden the future world is such that your

knowledge-based business is now an AI,

Mm-hmm.

then for you to become the leader of the future for that

business, you don't necessarily have to be a tech person, but you need to

understand that you grow by usage, you grow by other people learning with you.

You have to let go of control and then remember if before you were

the person that knew everything, all of a sudden you have to be the

person that learns with people.

That's a very different type of leadership style.

So I see a lot of people not spending adequate time to say, "Okay, I've

done the company strategy, but what is my strategy and how am I gonna

create a safe space have a trusted friend, an advisor," whatever it may

be, where I can go and say, "Actually, this is really uncomfortable.

I, I worry I'm not gonna be that person.

What do I need to learn?

What do I need to practice?

And if it's not me, how do I still manage the business in a successful

way where I can leave when I want to, not when I get told to?"

I mean, it, it's, it's always so true, right?

Like we've, we've mentioned before, people, people, people,

people, regardless of how much AI.

But you know, because everybody's racing into AI.

And, and you've been quite clear, you know, it's not technology.

We agree.

It's not the technology.

Technology is like a commo- is becoming a commodity.

It really comes down to the organization.

So for AI to become a foundational, have like found- foundational use and like for

the future of a lot of organizations, I think that's a lot of the narrative that's

out there, is that this is foundation.

Mm.

What needs to, to happen internally to have a foundation built on

AI when it makes everyone uncomfortable?

Well, I, I think that, that the reason it makes everyone

feel uncomfortable is because they, they see this tool that can almost be

better than themselves, and then they logically go, "Oh my God, then they

don't need me." And that's also why we see businesses with 800 impor- employees

having 800 agentic work streams.

Uh, instead of saying, " What does our business need to become, and how

do we best build towards that, all of us?" It may mean that some function

which before was five people only has one contribution, and another one

with five has seven contributions.

But if you build them individually out, then the only thing you're doing

is you're hitting the wall faster.

So let's say for instance, before customer service, they needed to close a case

fast and and sales needed to upsell.

So one upsells and the other one says, "This was an amend to the booking and

I'm gonna cancel it," and then they just keep doing that all the time.

Instead of saying, "What is really our objective as a business?"

It is to, let's say, increase basket size, but also loyalty.

You then say, "Okay, the ultimate outcome is the increased revenue,"

and we maybe start segmenting and saying who needs the help and who

just wants a, a faster completion.

So I would always say it's about knowing what your y- as we said with

your identity, where do you want to go, but working from a future back.

And when I say future back, it is not about saying, "I have a crystal ball,

and I imagine exactly what the world will look like in two years' time." But

it is about saying, "I know where I have value and where it could be relevant,

and let's build from that back." So as a leader, it's about holding a space,

but also al- allowing for contributions, allowing for people and coming and

saying, "Actually, what I do today is not relevant, but I'm afraid to speak

up because then I won't get my bonus."

Well, thank you for admitting that.

You are still meaningful for the business, and we are gonna revisit

how we reward people, so we're all shaping that future together.

Yeah, I feel like it's gonna take a handful of people in the

room to design that, what that vision is because so much has changed and there's

so many different types of capabilities, and technology's a huge part of it.

And so it's the vision for the company I don't feel like, can

really come from one person unless they are, this wonderful unicorn.

But it is more of a group project.

But I would also say, why would you want it to come from one person?

Right.

you can have a, let's say almost like a guardian of

the brand or something like that.

Let's say, but, but, but that's more to say this is, this is the core

that we protect, but everyone should sense, feel a sense of ownership and

contribute to where you're going.

I think that's why I'm very positive and excited about this

because it actually empowers an organization significantly more.

It allows people to contribute on a whole new level.

It does mean that it is very hard to say, "This is exactly the outcome I

expect from you and what I will measure you against," but it is easier to say,

"If we achieve this together, we should all feel very proud and we will then

separate for the reward accordingly."

Yeah, I've been, we've been seeing a lot of companies start

doing a lot of their automation.

A lot of it's back office, right?

Supply chain.

But there's a lot of automating broken experiences just faster

we all have our theories on why this is happening, but I'm not in it every day.

Ricardo's not in it e- every day.

Why does this keep happening?

Are we that siloed that it just doesn't come up seriously in 2026?

It, it, I think you, I mean, you answered it yourself.

The, the point, if you tell someone, "Here's a tool, do your job better,"

that's what they will do, right?

They will look at it from their very subjective vantage

point with the information and knowledge that they hold today.

So you need to set that different context and say, "In this wider context, you

four people, you may not have been close friends before, but you're all touching

the same customer at different stages. We're buying cake for you." At the end of

the day, you have come up with a better experience for them, and you need to

all own the outcome together, and then we shape the journeys according to that

who owns that?

The leader

mean, is that leadership?

Is that structure?

Like, how far do you have to go up to start blending divisions or departments or

you have a very good

collaborations

there because of course the top leader cannot, let's say the, the CEO

of Walmart cannot tell this to everyone.

But one of the challenges which exist in, in bigger companies and even

just in mid-size is unfortunately often things get escalated to the

highest level of incompetence, right?

It's not that people are, are, are silly or stupid, they have different jobs.

But finding the best solution on the ground, the virtual ground or

the physical ground, is normally for the people on the ground, right?

So also spending a lot of time saying it's not about the hierarchy, it's

about saying who serves, serves the customer the same way and they

get together across functions.

So when, when I work with people on, on larger scale structural changes,

we talk about what are the few change levers, not 50, we can below five.

So let's say for instance, what are the customer segments?

What are the future products?

Some of these things that we all collectively agree on,

they are part of the future.

If we say for instance a customer segment and a customer journey, then let's

look at that full customer journey and see who interacts at different phases.

Doesn't matter whether one has a boss of a regional manager, one

has a boss of a operations manager, but across that customer journey

we have a shared responsibility and that's where we optimize.

And then we allow people at different levels of the organization to talk

to their peers and solve together instead of having it go up, wait three

months until it's time on the agenda and then come down and the world

has changed in the meantime, right?

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Yeah, I, I feel like one of the things too that happens in, in those scenarios

is that a lot of those and maybe this-- I don't wanna necessarily say this

happens at that mid-level, but sometimes it's only because it's what they're

being asked to from above, and that's to focus really on the measurement and

the metrics as the tool that defines how successful they're going to be at this.

And I know you, you have said before that the problem isn't really in

the measurement, it's at mistaking that measurement as progress.

And w- w-- are, are there some ex-- I mean, do you see this often where

companies are in, in a sense hiding behind the metrics instead of actually making

the decisions they need to be making?

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

I mean, people feel so good when they're like, "Oh my God, my

number's green." Very exciting.

Yeah.

I've-- My dashboard is green.

Yeah.

Yeah

"But but, but what, what did it really do?" And I think this is

also where, where if you have taught people to worry about a number being

green in a dashboard, then you haven't explained to them what the impact

and value that they bring truly is.

Maybe they've never met a customer, maybe they have never understood the workload

that they create for other people.

So all these layers of the organization have the responsibility to say, "This

green number, what does it really mean?" Because it may be that a red number

is better for the business overall.

So for sure, this sense of completion and gratitude that people get from a

spreadsheet is a misunderstood comfort that doesn't necessarily drive the change.

I would also say because in any size, sizable business, setting

an objective and measuring it is measuring past performance.

Mm-hmm.

are the leading indicators of the future that you want to create?

Those are the ones you should be rewarding.

And, and thinking about what are the, the proof points of that

direction that's most important.

And this is not a long list.

It is actually we were able to create that experience that was

able to increase the margin.

Brilliant.

Let's talk about that story.

It may be a small number.

What did we learn from it?

Why… What felt different?

Why did the customer accept this higher margin?

Was it actually the product or was it the experience around it?

Right.

Right

a lot more storytelling about the learning versus the number

Yeah.

And I, I know you, you focus and you walked us through

earlier on those four behaviors.

And what, what I really find interesting with that is that it, it's kind of telling

me that it's not as much about having more information and more data, which

we-- especially now with AI, we hear so much about everyone needs the data.

They need the data to be able to make the decisions.

But I-- what I'm hearing your message is really it's not as much about what

the data is telling you to make the decision, it's what's the behavior that

needs to happen because of the data?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Some- someone t- taught me this sentence once and I have stolen with

pride and used it multiple times since.

So asking the question of what would it take to change your

mind, I find hugely interesting.

So going into a management meeting and people are really proud to show

good numbers, da, da, da, da, da.

It's, it's reaffirming and it's not really needed because people should be

accountable for delivering what they do.

But wanting a change, then you need to actually say what, what's the data I

could bring to change your perception?

And in many, many cases, it is not data that you will pull in additional reports.

It is actually really it's a matter of my competition is doing something that

that blew me away, and I need to understand what's

our, our version of that.

It's not, say, run faster and give me a bigger number.

So asking the question again, what would it take to change your mind?

And getting people

to truly think about it before they respond, 'cause it's not an easy question

And that drives the behavior versus driving data.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I would say especially also now where it's so easy to pull data and people come

and they're like, "Well, but the la- data looks good, so I should be fine." Well,

have you really thought about what data you pulled and, and why it looks fine?

I think that, that we, we get numbed by more data instead of saying,

what is the data that we don't see and, and what is it that enables

us to make different decisions?

Especially also in, in, Let's say for instance I've, I've… I'm

doing quite a lot of work on, on, on global rollout strategies right now.

The amount of attention that gets drawn to developed markets versus

developing markets and understanding the difference in culture and therefore

difference in, in, in buying capa- capacity around the world is huge.

But that's not what the headlines tell us.

So people go, wake up, they read their news on whatever channel

they do, social media most likely, 'cause that's what most people do.

They go into the office and they say, "It's terrible with these tariffs.

We, we, we need to, to fill our warehouses so we can continue to deliver," instead

of actually saying, "There are people right now in the world who are very,

very happy to buy and they're growing.

How do we make sure that we invite them into our family so we actually

build more optionality into our business than what we had in the past?"

This is definitely a moment, Where everybody says

it's like the AI era, right?

Which I get, I get.

I really feel like this moment is going, has an opportunity to build so many

better leadersh- a better leadership culture going forward, as well as

everybody having permission to take the time to continue their own development.

Mm-hmm.

It's almost like that permission is mandatory

in order to absorb the tech.

Yeah.

Yeah

That's permission that I think a lot of people haven't

given themselves in the past, that it's not a professional development,

it's not a personal development, it's not a leadership development,

it's not a cultural development.

It's to-do list, to-do list, to-do list, to-do list, and now that to-do list relies

on your ability to lead in a new way for a new type of business, new type of people,

and change a very old corporate culture of standards and make this, kind of put the

time in this year to make these shifts.

Yeah, absolutely.

But I also think we need to acknowledge that most of the leaders on top right

now did not grow up in this era at all.

They grew up in a different era.

So some of them have spent a lot of time complemented with what they have, but it's

also a huge opportunity for C minus one, two, three to say, "I'll be your wing man.

I'll help you out.

I will carry the responsibility that you do, and I will complement you

with these skills." So I agree with you, it's a huge opportunity but

it's one that exists at all levels.

We should not sit and wait for the, all the ones that are called CEO to change

how the behaviors are because they may not actually have the same let's say

input that, that everyone else has.

I, I also very much believe that this is a time where those who have the

ability also have the responsibility to, to, to lean in because especially

with large language models, we are it's, it's easy to level out everything.

The floor is being raised, but the ceiling can al- can also be lowed,

lowered if you don't differentiate, if you aren't constantly critical, if you

aren't aware of saying, "Actually, that's not how we show up in our business.

That's not what I want to optimize for." You need to continuously steer that in

that way, and especially also where right now we have a lot of people investing

in technology, not just, let's say, from a corporate perspective, but also,

let's say, their saving goes into the shares 'cause the multiples are higher.

But these tech companies do not have the operational knowledge that

a lot of other businesses have.

So do you really want the tech companies to shape all the agentic models or

the operational models, et cetera?

Or do you want to say, "Thank you for the technology. I will build it into what I

know, and together we can go to market"?

Yeah,

we are seeing that companies like Amazon are building a

lot of operational capability into their AI models, and a lot of the Chinese

AI models are being brought closer to manufacturing and au- automation

because that's their expertise.

Why is that not the case for every single business out there saying,

"I will use all this technology for my non-dif- differentiating

areas, but the area I know, that's where I'm gonna shape the market.

I'm gonna transform what I have now from an analog world to an AI world, and that's

how I'm gonna secure my future relevance"?

Yeah, that's really where their opportunity is to take that

leadership position, right, in the market.

Yeah.

It is an exciting time

What-- Are, are there, in, in that scenario, the,

the example you just h-highlighted, right, where why, why aren't they

taking that operational expertise?

Is there-- Does that kind of align to one of the specific behaviors

you mentioned before that that's maybe missing from, from the--

for those leaders to engage with?

Well, I think it comes back to the very first one.

If you are not envisioning ambitiously, if you are like, "I'm

very happy I have 30 retail stores.

We are growing.

We are matching the market demand.

That's what we do." You may be doing some omni-channel or delivery or something,

and that's how, how you're managing that.

But what you could actually be looking at is saying, "We know more about people's

buying patterns than anyone else.

That is our capability.

It's not the store.

Our capability is understanding what consumers need and translating

that into goods on shelf." You can still sell goods on shelf, but that

knowledge of reading the patterns of demand, that's your core expertise.

So that, for me, is about envisioning ambitiously and not just being locked

in whatever product you have today.

If you envision ambitiously in that way, there is absolutely no reason why you

can't first just internally capture that.

You can bring all your employees to contribute to that.

The model gets wiser and wiser and wiser.

You can also say to some of your suppliers, "Do you want

to contribute to the model?

You can learn with us.

We can grow together, but it's our model." You can say to your

customers, "You can subscribe 'cause we can be a step ahead of you."

Right

You can even have partners in other parts of the world say, "We

have this knowledge, and you can use us."

So you are still the core identity that you were in the past but in a very,

very different format that enables you to be relevant in the future.

And I said, I started, start saying, "Do it internally." I'm not saying give it

away yet, but build it internally so you have that, and then start growing with it.

Maybe over time that is your core business, but for now you have a

responsibility to understand what it is, it, nurture it, and see where it goes

If you're sitting next to a CEO of a, at, at a real inflection point,

what would leadership at auto- autonomy in motion actually look like at that moment?

Well, I, I would, I would go through the four behaviors.

I would have a sense of what comes naturally to this individual?

Is he able to envision or she ena- able to envision?

Is he or she able to actually expand with curiosity?

Do they create space for people to contribute?

Do they have partners?

Are they open to be challenged?

These type of things.

Can they do all those but actually not communicate clearly and say, "Thank you.

We tried this.

We failed.

We're gonna go this way instead"?

Can they guide people on the next steps?

Can they be honest about what their own, let's say future expectations are and

make the staffing ahead of time for that?

And, and lastly, can they actually embody that change themselves?

So I will say, in theory, you can staff for the first three.

You could say, "I'm not great at them, but I have this wingman, this

wingman, and this wingman, and they sit very closely to me." But on top, you

cannot staff for embodying the change.

You can't, because then people won't follow you.

They will follow whoever that will embody that change.

It's okay if that's a founder or an owner or a CEO, but then the list is done.

It cannot be a, "Oh, it's my assistant, my comms person," or whatever it may be.

So that's what I start with.

I start understanding what their, let's say, awareness is, what their core skills

are, where we need to grow, where we need to create something that either

builds their personal capability or their organizational capability, because this

is not about doing a one-off exercise.

It's about training these skills continuously.

So once we've kind of done that exercise, I say to them "Every day, practice them.

Every single day, you have to do something where you envision

ambitiously, dream a little bit bigger.

You create something where people can input.

You make a clear prioritization and message it, and then

you show how you've grown."

Because if you practice those every day, I practice them every minute,

every hour, then when the big change comes, it's not dangerous.

You're not afraid of change.

You're very comfortable with change.

Right

Um, and, and, and that I can see grows people throughout and, and

as I said, I've seen great leaders who have been able to grow ahead of their

industry simply by these repeated patterns because it, it be- they, they are able

to raise above and, and move faster

Yeah.

Are, are there-- When, when you're working with a, a organization or leaders in

that, in that manner, I mean, are, are there particular flags or, or warning

signs you see that say, "Oh, this is why the transformation isn't happening.

This is what they can't get past"?

Lots, I would say.

I think the hardest one for most people is to be open.

Yeah.

expanding with curiosity, being open when it has been your

entire career to have the answers.

And now I'm telling you, you can't have all the answers.

Mm-hmm.

You need to be curious about what other people have of answers.

That, I would say,

And you have to be comfortable with that

They need to be comfortable.

They need to know what they need to unlearn.

They're like, "I, I, I have the answer." I'm like, "But really?

Well, that was true in that context.

Now you have a different context.

Is it still true?

I'm not

it's not be true

throw everything out, but just be open to the fact that it may not."

So, so this ability to feel comfortable with a direction a responsibility, but

not a complete final set objective, that's definitely the hardest part.

So we practice that quite a lot.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm

would say it's a bit like when you have kids and you watch them do

something that you know you could have done faster, but you feel much more pride.

That's how I feel with them.

That's how they feel with their organization.

It's that sense of, "Oh my God, we got further because I created the

environment for these individuals."

Right.

Right.

So for any leaders who are, are listening right now to this discussion and they're,

and they're feeling that pressure to evolve, what, what would you tell them

sort of the first uncomfortable shift they need to be willing to make this quarter?

And, and what would be the-- what would you tell them the cost of not doing it is?

Hmm.

I, I think right now there is a lot of numbness in general.

So I think we've touched upon it a few times.

Be very aware of what you're, you're great at.

Stop hitting yourself over the head all the time.

Find that thing that you are great at, and then bring that to

work, to home, to everything more.

So instead of what they need to do differently, just start

with that positive affirmation what, what you can actually do.

Then I would say, secondly, is, is the being open.

Be curious.

Yeah, curiosity

if you want to get it into a rhythm, I would say the four behaviors.

But if, if you say one thing, know what you're great at and bring that.

Don't bring everything else

Mm-hmm.

That's great.

That's a great point

some of the loudest leaders in the industry right now, whether

it be on tech or on retail, aren't necessarily winning me over these days.

In your opinion, who's winning right now?

Like, where are we looking to?

I feel like so much has been, is like so radical.

Yeah.

And I'm like, where's this like, where's a,

a strong North Star right now?

Is there somebody that stands out to you where you're just like, props?

wish I could give you a name.

So I, I would say I completely agree with you.

Right now, unfortunately, even many of the great, great leaders are not showing up.

I think that there is an innate amount, amou- of pressure and some

of the rules book- rule books are being questioned at current time.

I am a firm believer that the, let's say, the, the new form of leadership

will still prevail because we are seeing more challenge, more disagreement.

But right now, I think that collectively these strong leaders are looking

at how can we show up together?

Because right now the cost of standing individually seems to be very, very high.

So that- that's, let's say, the meta message of I expect these great

leaders to show up collectively and,

Great.

They're in training at the moment.

a different way.

However, I would say I get a lot of encouragement by meeting people behind

closed doors because there's a lot of desire, a lot of willingness to

do it, there's a lot of intellect and hope and all these type of things.

So I believe that our responsibility as, as you and me and, and, and

so on, is actually to say how can we, how can we prop them?

How can we support them?

How can we make sure that they take this step and we are right there with them?

Because it's not that hope is gone, it's not that intellect is gone.

It's a matter of, of do I dare?

Right.

And

that's very hopeful

else, like that, that, that first person standing out looking stupid

Mm-hmm.

is only looking stupid for a few seconds if

someone supports them, right?

So make those six seconds shorter is, is really what I

am encouraging everyone to do.

And, and I do see people doing good things, but it is not at the

global scale that it should be

Hmm.

Yeah, so it's a, it's very much a little bit about reaching

further with that curiosity.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah,

and I think also that there is a lot of, of not

being deterministic with this.

Uh, learning from the AIs saying, "I'm just gonna be generative. just gonna

suggest do a hypothesis." It's not about saying you are wrong and I am right.

could be.

be

What could be?

want to join me in this?

Our business could deliver this to you.

Because that's also what we see in a lot of change, that someone goes out

and creates a market and therefore others are willing to invest to grow it.

Many industry interdependencies have come exactly through these conversations.

Not saying I, I will sign a contract, but if I do this, what will you do?

And then together you move and you create new markets that are very let's

say profitable for, for both parties.

So that exploration, that hypothesis seeking, that has been at the heart of

many, many industries, but not necessarily at the forefront of business the years,

I think is what we're gonna see next.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, Louisa, this has been such an eye-opening discussion.

I really want to thank you for spending this time with us and our audience,

sharing all these insights on how leaders, as I say, really need to look

in the mirror and kind of ask themselves, are they being curious enough, right?

Are they exhibiting the behaviors they need to take the business forward,

whether they're, they're actively trying to transform or not even thinking

about what they should be doing to go forward and to move into the next

step and not be stuck in the past.

I, I really wish we had a few more hours to spend on this.

Um, and I'm sure Casey would wish we could dive even deeper

in, into luxury specifically, 'cause Casey's always open for a

When are you gonna be in New York?

I'd like to see you.

Soon.

Soon.

Oh, no, I would l- I, I look forward to that.

And, and fortunately it is an ongoing conversation.

So thank you so much for having me and, and let's keep the

conversation going, whe- whether on this channel or, or, or others.

Yeah.

I mean, I know our audience must have been taking massive

notes during this discussion.

I mean, there's just so many incredible takeaways and, and reminders.

Things that maybe we need to set a couple reminders throughout the month to just

take stock a little bit on how we're dev- you know, how we're developing and how

we're, we're communicating with our team and acknowledging where we are today and

where we wanna be, you know, tomorrow.

If any of the listeners and viewers wanna get in touch with you to learn more or

even look for your help to support their strategy and transformation, what is the

best way for them to reach out to you?

So of course LinkedIn is always there.

Louisa Loran or louisaloran.com has my information, contact forms, all of that.

Or you could get started with a book, but I would say in many of these

high-pressure environments, it is helpful to have a specific context

and say, "What does it mean for me?"

So, feel free to reach out

Fantastic.

Thank you.

We'll include that in the show notes along with a link to your book

Oh, which we definitely recommend to everyone.

Go out and get a copy and have it on your shelf

All right, Ricardo, this is a wrap

Thank you so much.

Take care

Thank

Thank you

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I'm Ricardo Belmar

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