Built on Belief: Matt Marcotte on Cultures of Commitment in Retail

if you're looking for someone who's an expert in CRM technology.

That's not me.

If you're looking for someone who's a sales rep who is really interested

in B2B sales, that's not me.

But if you actually are looking for someone who has deep industry knowledge,

has a passion for technology and has utilized it in whatever form that we

could over years, and is someone that really has the desire to be a partner, to

help figure out and talk about the case for change as to why industries should

adopt technology, then that's something I think I could actually add value in.

And I realized that gasp was this moment of joy.

Like there was, it was such a connection and such a, it was just

such a happy memory for people.

And the question is, how do you get that back?

Simon Sinek and his Ted Talk had this great phrase where he says,

Martin Luther King Jr. Said, I have a dream, not I have a plan.

And so in order to get people engaged, you know, data informs,

kind of feeling inspires.

And so you need to get people inspired.

I feel like the industry's magic has been lost.

Hello, and welcome to the third episode of the Retail Razor Retail Transformers

podcast, the latest podcast in the fast growing Retail Razor Podcast Network.

I'm Ricardo Belmar.

And I am Casey Golden.

Welcome Retail Razor fans to the show where we cut through the clutter

and bring you the people driving real transformation in retail.

The change makers, the innovators, and the disruptors reshaping the

industry from the inside out.

This is the podcast where we dive into candid conversations with the people

reshaping the world of commerce, the crazy ones, the misfits, the

rebels, even in the troublemakers, and sometimes the round pegs and the

square holes, but most often the bold thinkers that see things differently

and drive the industry forward.

So if you're passionate about innovation, leadership, and the future of commerce.

Retail Transformers is the podcast for you.

We're coming off a killer start to the series after launching with April

Sabral in our first episode with her Positive Mindset Leadership Approach and

upcoming book, Positive Accountability.

Then with the Fairy Godmother of Retail, Vicki Cantrell, the last episode, I

mean, no one embodies the spirit of a retail transformer more than Vicki.

Absolutely.

Yes.

So you have to wonder how do we follow that up, right?

How do we bring listeners and viewers another incredible retail transformer

that's more than meets the eye?

Oh, Ricardo,

ah, you snuck that in.

I

Uh,

I told you I'd take the challenge.

We've gotta get you a new catchphrase already.

Okay.

Okay, so maybe this is a good time then to ask our audience for just one quick favor.

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to let us know what you like, what you don't, what you wanna hear more of.

And.

Please help me get Ricardo to stop saying what meets the eye.

It's a challenge.

It's a challenge.

Of course, if you haven't checked out the other shows in the

Retail Razor Podcast Network.

Check 'em out.

We think you'll like them too.

There's really something for everyone from our main show, the Retail Razor Show,

where we talk about the latest trends and strategies that every retailer needs to

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So you have definitely checked those out, and if you haven't subscribed to them

all, we love the ratings and reviews.

That's right.

So on today's show we have another author, another new book that we are absolutely

excited about and we're lucky enough to receive an advanced copy ahead of this

recording and it does not disappoint.

This is one you'll absolutely want to have on your retail bookshelf.

That's right.

We are talking with another retail legend, Matt Marcotte, founder and principal of

M2 Collaborative, an executive leadership and high performance consultancy.

And someone with an amazingly rich history in retail.

Yeah.

Matt brings more than 35 years of experience building, scaling,

reinventing, and advising some of the most valuable brands in the world.

Before launching his own practice, Matt was Senior Vice President and

head of Global Industry Advisors at Salesforce, shaping strategy

across retail, consumer goods, manufacturing, automotive, and energy.

Like myself, Matt made the jump from the brand side to the technology side of

the industry, and prior to Salesforce, he held senior leadership positions

at many retailers, including Chief Operating Officer at Bergdorf Goodman.

This one is obviously my favorite.

Obviously.

Global Executive Vice president of Direct to Consumer at Tory Burch.

Before that, he led Apple's North America retail organization during a period

of explosive expansion and at The Gap he spearheaded a complete reinvention

of the brand's retail presence.

Matt begun his career as a merchant at May Company.

Matt is an executive coach and advisor working with C-Suite leaders and

executive teams to help them navigate complexity, accelerate performance,

and build belief driven cultures that scale in their organization.

And we're gonna be learning quite a bit more about why that's so critical

in today's retail business with 35 plus years of real world leadership

experience, Matt offers one-on-one coaching, team development and dynamic

sessions and brand strategy consulting.

Grounded in both strategic insight, and honestly my favorite part here, deep

empathy, which is so important today for successful high growth businesses.

And what I love too is that Matt's work isn't theoretical.

It's it's lived.

He helps clients clarify their voice, strength and confidence to

lead high performing, aligned teams.

He is a Columbia University trained coach, certified in MBTI, FIRO-B

Hogan 360, and other assessment tools, bringing a unique combination of theory,

frameworks, and practical experience growing, scaling, and rebuilding

brands of all sizes and complexities.

And he's a fellow Rethink Retail Top Retail Expert like us both.

He was named a Thinkers.

360, Top 100 Thought Leader.

And last but not least, Matt also teaches an MBA course on consumer and

brand relationships at Boston College.

And somehow amid all of this activity, he found the time to author his book,

Built On Belief, Why Cultures of Commitment Are The Competitive Advantage.

Just, wow!

I can't wait to jump into this discussion.

Matt.

Such an amazing person.

So many accomplishments and, and really an inspiring leader in the industry.

So everybody get your notebooks ready 'cause you're absolutely

gonna want, take so many notes here, you may run out of your one pen.

That's right, so let's not wait another minute.

Let's go right into our conversation with Matt Marcotte, founder and principal

of M2 Collaborative, the author of Built On Belief, Why Cultures of

Commitment Are The Competitive Advantage.

Welcome, Matt to the Retail Transformers podcast.

It is so exciting to have you on the show today.

I'm so excited to be here to join you and Casey.

This is so fantastic.

I mean, how often do we get a chat with the former Bergdorf Goodman exec?

I'm already a fan waiting for somebody to buy the store for my birthday.

I got it.

My, I got it in my calendar.

We're all set.

You don't even wanna see my Christmas list

and we haven't even started talking about your new book.

I am very thrilled to be opening these pages.

Absolutely.

So before we dive into the book, I'm curious about the moment you decided to

bet your career on an industry transition.

Yeah.

Most people play it safe, but you jumped from retail to tech.

I'm guilty of the same.

What was going through your head when you made that call?

And for executives listening who see an opportunity in a completely different

space, what was the real first step?

Yeah, I mean, I, for me, I'd spent 30 years in retail, like building

brands, leading brands, turning around brands, and it was very clear.

I mean, we, this is something that's kind of the kind of

blinding flash, the obvious, right?

It was very clear that technology wasn't just kind of.

En enabling the industry, it was reshaping the industry.

And what I thought was really interesting was so many conversations revolved around

investment in technology, but it was like champagne, taste, beer, budget, right?

The, the kind of the decisions weren't being made, or the right filters

or strategies weren't being created to be able to do that at scale.

And so I just had this feeling that if this is where the puck is going, how

do I become part of that conversation?

Also learn because I obviously needed to understand it more.

And then I thought there might be an opportunity for me on the other side

of the conversation to really help retailers and leaders understand and make

smarter decisions about technology that can really enhance the retail customer

and the retail employee experience.

And so when the opportunity with Salesforce came up, I just felt

like this is a really great moment to be able to do what I just said.

And so, you know, it was interesting, and this is a little bit into

your second part of your question around the advice to others.

For me, the reason I felt like it was something I could do was I found a

role, or there was the role that I was being asked to potentially interview

or to interview for was a role that fit the skillset and what I could offer.

And so what I mean by that is I had, I think it was 13 interviews over the

course of my process and every single one of them, I was very, very clear.

I said, if you're looking for someone who's an expert in CRM technology.

That's not me.

If you're looking for someone who's a sales rep who is really interested

in B2B sales, that's not me.

But if you actually are looking for someone who has deep industry knowledge,

has a passion for technology and has utilized it in whatever form that we

could over years, and is someone that really has the desire to be a partner,

to help figure out and talk about the case for change as to why industries.

Should adopt technology, then that's something I think I

could actually add value in.

So there was the kind of clarity that I had around who I was,

what I wanted to accomplish, what I could bring to the table.

There was the transparency around, if you're looking for this,

that's great, but that's not me.

And of course there was a role that actually fit.

What I was able to do.

And so that's kind of how I made the change and that's how I would actually

advise others to get super clear about what they want to accomplish and what they

can offer, and then try to figure out how that fits into a role versus shoehorning

yourself into a role that really isn't what you are great at or wanna do.

Yeah, I think that's, that's great advice is just really leaning into those gifts.

Retail has a lot of, so many people in retail, like so

much more than we think we do.

Like There's just different.

yes.

You know what's interesting, Casey, and this is something I think is super,

and I write about this in the book around clarity and this idea of North

Star, but as it relates to what you just said, when I spent my, you know,

formative years in retail and was trying to get field employees into corporate.

The challenge was, as you said, it's harder sometimes for people to articulate

what their skillset is and translate it to a language that the person on the

other side of the table understands.

And so I've always been a big proponent of understand the language of the

person that you're talking to or the person that has the authority

and talk to them in their language.

Don't expect them to understand your language, so to speak.

Because you're right.

It's the, the, the ability to shift is there, but sometimes just

this alignment of understanding how this is actually applicable

to what I'm actually looking for.

What was the moment that made you say, alright, I have to write a book?

No way around it.

I just felt like everyone needed to hear what I had to say.

No.

Um,

that's it next.

No.

Um, that's it, that's all I got.

Uh, you know, it's interesting.

I, I think one of the.

One of the benefits of the experiences that I've had, including the time

that I was at Salesforce, was I got to see across hundreds of different

organizations in different industries and work with their senior leadership teams.

And what was really clear to me is that the challenges of leadership, the

challenges of commitment, the challenges of culture are as complex and as

strong as ever, if not even stronger.

And I think because of the way that I have led and built my, my

success, let's just put it that way.

Those things are very important to me.

And so I felt as I was making this transition out of the corporate world

into the practice that I now have, this was a big part of it, was to really

talk about, you know, the importance of commitment versus compliance, the

import, the, the importance of focusing on your internal customer before

you focus on your external customer.

And also just this idea that culture is not different than performance.

That culture is the driver of performance.

And I think that concept is still variable in people's understanding

or belief of that relationship.

And so I felt like there was an opportunity to talk about that.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

You know, it's interesting you say that, 'cause one of the things that

I always find too, that when, when you have the opportunity to work on

the tech side and on that supplier side, these are, you do get that

vantage point where you see across so many different organizations, right?

And you see not just how you see the similarities and the differences, but

you see things that any of individual folks that you work with in any of those

engagements, you know, they're only seeing what's in their organization and they

can compare to past organizations they've been with, but they're not, they don't

have the visibility, naturally, right?

And so what's happening in other organizations that because you're on that

supplier side, that technology supplier side, you get the vantage point of seeing

that and you can leverage that, right?

And people can learn from that in, in ways that the other ones won't have access to.

absolutely.

I think it's also interesting, and Ricardo, I'm sure you saw this

too when you were at Microsoft.

Because of the altitude we play at, we don't actually run their business.

You have more clarity and more objectivity around what you're seeing

Mm-hmm.

That's

And I think to your point, that just adds one more level

of clarity and also thematic.

Wow, I saw this in five different conversations.

This must mean something.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Exactly.

Yeah.

I think that's always a, a big, a big advantage.

Yes, agreed.

Yeah, I mean, I feel, I feel more people on the retail side

should move over to the tech side.

I think we'd get a lot better tech.

Um, I think our sales cycles would be shorter.

I think our product strategy would be better.

Because I do think maybe you could also relate to this being on the tech side,

looking at that altitude, I felt like I was commonly the only person in the

room that knew how everything worked, like I knew how to do all those jobs.

I what happens with the tech?

I know what happens with the BOM.

I know gonna get cut,

yes.

Yeah.

Yeah,

Yeah,

you know, and, and being able to be essentially like on my end, I ended up

being a solutions architect because, I saw the business, I saw the technology, I

knew how to fix it, and I could productize

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

And being able to have that, I, I would love to see more

people make the transition.

Because I think, I think technology needs, needs a retailer.

A hundred percent.

It was one of the best parts of being in that role with the team

that I had was exactly what you said.

If I actually just take it out of just the tech world.

I think you, have you heard of this term spider webbing your career?

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

So, so back when I was at May Company, back in the 18 hundreds, um.

Back, but back when I started, I went through the executive training program

and one of the things that May Company did a great job of, and many companies,

I think at the time, was what they called spider webbing, which was to

give the person as many different types of experiences as possible.

And I think Casey, to your point.

I find people to be more valuable when they have more clubs in their golf

bag, and so people that are single threaded become subject matter experts.

But I just said it's very narrow and the people that actually take on

different responsibilities or take on different opportunities, and I say this

to young people all the time, I sound so old, you know, what are young kids?

I say this to like my, like my, some of my students.

I said, while you're young, you don't have families and you, you

know, you, you don't, you're not locked into high salaries yet.

Take every opportunity to learn something new and something different because it

adds context to your ability to drive a business and to your ca Casey, like to

know how something works and to know how it connects to something else, especially

in today's world, is so important.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's so true.

Yeah.

There's a, a discussion I was in with someone recently was more about

technology that gets put into store teams.

And the one example I always bring up is a company I worked with before

that did a lot of managed services in, in that kind of scenario.

And there was a meeting we had where they were, we brought in some outside industry

analysts to kind of talk about trends and things with the whole executive team.

Analyst asked a question about, so how many people in a room

have ever worked in a store?

And there was like 15, 15 people in the room, right?

Only two of us raised their hand.

And here we are bringing, trying to bring solutions to market, right?

For that purpose when

13 outta the 15 have no idea what it's like to work in the store environment.

But Yeah.

so it's so true.

And it goes both ways, right?

To your point, it goes both ways that, you know, when you've crossed over

and you've been on both sides of it, you have a different perspective.

yeah.

And, and you know, it's not to plug the book again, but I talk about this

in the book about the ivory tower.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so regardless of where it is, when pe, when decisions are made too far away from

the people that actually utilize them.

They're usually the wrong decisions and wrong solutions.

Right.

So to your point, Ricardo, the fact that only two of you were in the stores before

says a lot about what's gonna be created

Exactly.

Yeah.

Exactly.

Exactly.

So this, so.

It's up to the brand to make sure they're very clear on who they

are, and the experience and their vision, and having that clarity.

yeah.

Well, and, and speaking of the book, um, one thing

that,

yeah.

Um, so goes, I guess we should talk about that a little bit, but

you know, in fact, so let me jump in like right at the beginning.

You know, one of the things that I thought was particularly fascinating

you did, is like you literally start the book and right at the beginning you

have a very provocative but important question to kick things off where you

ask, when was the last time you really thought about what your brand believes?

And so, so tell us what does that mean to you?

What do you see when brands don't ask this?

Yeah.

It is meant to be provocative and I also think it's something that I saw a lot in

my career, which is, you know, when thing, when companies start, right, the startup,

that's all they talk about is what they believe and the North Star and the

differentiation points and why they exist, because that's the whole point, right?

To kind of create that escape velocity around differentiation.

As companies get bigger and more entrenched and potentially, hopefully

more successful, they really focus more on the how and the what, the

task, the initiatives, the stuff, and not enough time recentering,

everyone in the organization around is what we're doing in service.

To why we exist in the first place.

And what I find is when you see that misalignment or that lack of reflection

and clarification, customer experience suffers because the brand starts

to not feel like the brand anymore.

Brand extensions as one example, can start to feel really bizarre.

Like, why would we have done that?

Or why would you be over there in that game?

Like why you're in that sandbox.

Employee experience suffers and they become more compliant because they're

now working task orientation versus.

Brand, mission, vision, focus.

And you know, it's interesting, one of the examples that I use with

my class, because it's a, it's a marketing class, is this idea of brand

marketing versus performance marketing.

And brand marketing is really about the vision, the feel, the culture,

the brand, the overarching, this is who we are and why we exist.

Performance marketing obviously is about getting the next sale, right?

So clicks and all those different things and research wise, they

found when brands shifted way too much to performance marketing, it

started to to deteriorate brands.

And so it's the same idea with this idea of belief and

clarification of your North Star.

If you don't know why you're doing what you're doing, then what

you do is kind of a crapshoot, whether it actually works or not.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, that's a great point.

Yeah.

As you can, and I say that you, you can't have anything extraordinary

happen without that concept of belief.

Right.

Yeah, and I, I mean, I think brands that forget why they do what they

do become forgettable to customers.

Yeah.

Do, do you have any like a, a specific example where you've seen

that con concept of belief really transform a company's culture?

I mean, I think, you know, I'll use my own experience when I

was joining Bergdorf Goodman.

Casey, this is for you when I joined Bergdorf Goodman.

111 year old venerable, arguably one of the most valuable luxury houses, even

though it's technically a department store, it's far different than that

in the country, if not the world.

And myself and the president had both been hired within six months of each other to

reinvent the brand or reignite the brand.

And what I found when I went in there is that they had lost the

focus on what made them unique.

What the actual secret sauce of the brand was, and what you found

was a lot of employees who were long-term and had passion, you

know, when passion's not flamed, it turns into frustration and anger.

And so you saw this toxic culture of people who are frustrated.

Because they know what Bergdorf was, but it's, it wasn't that anymore.

And so one of the first things that I did was to wanna learn, number one, right?

To kind of immerse myself to understand the brand.

And it was interesting when I, when I was telling people in New York that I

had taken this job, women especially.

Who had shopped, in Casey you may have been one of these people,

had I seen you on the street?

I said, oh, I'm the new chief operating officer at Bergdorf Goodman.

And they're like, oh, Bergdorf.

And it was like this gasp, but every single person had the gasp.

And I realized that gasp was this moment of joy.

Like there was, it was such a connection and such a, it was just

such a happy memory for people.

And the question is, how do you get that back?

And so I spent time with all 1200 employees in groups of 10.

Over the course of three months, getting to know them, help them teach

me about the brand, help me understand where the challenges were, and then be

able to work together to reignite this magical experience that was Bergdorf.

And we did, we turned the culture around in less than a year.

Hm.

Wow.

It's amazing.

There was a, there was a time.

In, you know, what, in the last couple years where every luxury brands

started changing, like planning, making their logos just like regular

fonts, like direct to consumer brands.

And it's just like, oh my gosh, are you completely forgotten who you are?

Like why are we, why are we talking Silicon Valley?

We set the standards like, what are you guys doing?

It this matters.

This matters a lot, and I was very happy to see Burberry go back to the logo.

I'm like, thank you for throwing out that other thing that you had

for a couple years and going back to who you're like, it matters.

There's brand familiarity.

We already love you.

The logo, leave it alone,

But it is interesting.

It is interesting.

So for the people that love brands like that, like when you're talking about

Burberry, the fact that you noticed that and had a reaction to the change.

Just goes to show how committed and connected you were to the brand.

So when brands make decisions, if they don't take people along

with them, it feels shocking.

And if they make them ivory towers we were talking about

before, with no understanding of what certain things mean to consumers or to

employees, obviously for that matter.

I always heard of internal customers and external customers,

then it can be a huge problem.

And so, you know, if you're doing this the right way.

And so Ricardo, when you asked me about, you know, that first question, when

you're clear about what you believe, who you are, why you exist, and that North

Star, that needs to be the filter for every decision that you make attached

to the brand because you might say, yes, we do that, or no, we don't do that.

Right?

And so to have those guardrails is super important.

And in the absence of those, you can make some really funky decisions

Yeah.

Well, so to to that point, I mean, you, you've been in boardroom

scenarios where everyone kind of nods their head enthusiastically,

about a given transformation or change, but then oftentimes

absolutely nothing happens after that.

So, yeah,

That was very generous of

I, I know.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Very, very, uh, very soft there now, but what, what separates.

The executives that actually do execute in, in those scenarios from the ones who

just have a great meeting and move on.

Yeah, I, I mean my, my belief, and I talk about this in the book as one of the

core tenets, is the idea of commitment.

Versus compliance

and the nodding head that does nothing is compliance.

It's just the the visual like, yep, let's get this meeting over with so

I can go back to doing exactly what I wanted to do in the first place.

And the people that are committed are the ones that leave the room and try

to actually take the meeting forward.

Because they believe in what they're actually trying to do or

what they've been tasked to do.

And so one of the biggest challenges, one of the things that I spent

a lot of time with my teams on to avoid that, was to create

environments where people felt safe.

To actually to challenge and to essentially have conflict.

And if you know that Patrick model for five dysfunctions of a team, it's

a perfectly kind of crafted triangle of trust, conflict, and commitment.

But what you find is in many boardrooms, people are being talked to and talked at

act versus engaged and included and given agency and voice to even just figure out

what will it take for you to get on board.

Yeah.

so we tend to bring people in and make proclamations or directives

or big unveilings versus, Hey, here's where we need to go.

Here's what we're solving for.

How do you think the best way to do this is?

Or let's share with you what our thinking is so far.

Kick the tires, tell us what might not work.

Tell us where we might actually be challenged here.

That people having a voice allows 'em to actually adopt or commit

to whatever the outcome is because they've had a chance to be heard.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's a good point.

How, how, how much of that is just, I'll say it's fear, meaning, you know, to

your point, you, you people coming in and you're presenting or you're talking

at, and a lot of the time, I, I, I feel.

People are doing that and prepare for that with this mindset of, I'm hoping

they're not going to challenge this.

I'm hoping that we've covered everything we're sary so that there will be no

challenge and but at and and some level.

Isn't the challenge a positive thing?

Challenge is very positive, but I think in that scenario that you just

described, they're actually looking for.

Compliance.

They just want people to do it, and it's messy.

I always say you, you lead people, you manage process, and when

people try to manage people, that's what you're talking about.

They're trying to manage outcomes, expectations, reactions to try

and get what they want versus finding out how to create a better

outcome by involving people.

So what I always find too, and so this is where I thought you were going

with the question, so I apologize for kind of going a little off, but

I think it's important, you know, I'm not a big one for sports analogies,

but the idea of no, no professional team gets on a field that game day and

then starts figuring out how to play,

That's right?

Yeah.

A.

so, so if so.

Would that be?

Imagine like, what should we do now?

I don't

know.

don't know.

Yeah.

I dunno.

But I think sometimes situations where people are compliant or

fear, they don't wanna actually either have pushback or they don't

wanna be the pushback or whatever.

It's because the culture is built to not support the things we're talking about.

So when you get into those meetings that the culture already exists, that this

is how we operate because this is who we are, then those conversations are natural.

Right.

So when it feels unnatural, it's because it goes against the culture

that's been set up by the organization?

You talk a lot about like heart, head, hands.

Yes.

Why do companies so often start with intellect and what changes when

they start leading with emotion?

Because retail, I believe, is very emotional and passionate

on both, whether you're on.

Yeah.

Listen, I'd love you guys to weigh on this as well.

This is my experience is when you, when you think about the hardhead hands kind

of methodology and why most companies start with the head, which is more the

intellectual piece, like you were saying, it's because it's easier to measure.

Uh,

Tactics, strategies, KPIs are all the things that fit on a spreadsheet

that make us feel better about, oh, look what our metrics are.

So it's people think leading with that shows efficiency, effectiveness,

measurability, all those different things.

There's I mean, my, my second quote of somebody else, or third I guess

Simon Sinek and his Ted Talk had this great phrase where he says,

Martin Luther King Jr. Said, I have a dream, not I have a plan.

And so in order to get people engaged, you know, data informs

kind of feeling inspires.

And so you need to get people inspired.

To be interested in understanding.

And that's messier, that's harder because you have to speak to

a different part of the brain.

You have to speak to different part of the, of the body, like, you know, our gut.

We make decisions based on a, a part of our brain that has no language, right?

And so the idea of how you get people to be like, Hey, wait a second,

tell me more, you, I'm curious now.

Like, oh my God, that sounds amazing.

I would love it if that's what we're able to do.

You have to have the right altitude of the message that you're giving

in a way that actually inspires people to wanna go further with you.

That's how the seeds of commitment are actually built.

If you actually explain something to someone intellectually, like a spreadsheet

and expect somebody to get emotionally excited about a spreadsheet, I mean,

yes, there are people who do, but in general, that's not how humans are wired.

We're wired to feel first, figure out what to do with that feeling

and then figure out what to do.

That, that, that

Right, and, and I think it's interesting because what, what does

every retail company claim that they're doing is they're trying to

get that emotional response from their

customer, right?

Yes, absolutely.

Not to go down a huge rabbit hole.

I hope this isn't one, but this idea for years, how many of us been

hearing customer centricity, authentic relationship, personalization at

scale, all these things that, to your point, Ricardo, are about that

connection, the human connection.

And there was some research that when I was at Salesforce that we had that

66% of consumers expect customers to understand their unique needs, and 68%

of them expect companies to show empathy.

Empathy is a human trait.

That's not a company

like monolithic trait.

Right.

So to your point, the idea of how retailers or any industry, by the

way, where there's humans involved.

How they get people to connect to them is really important.

And some research that I had done, which was really interesting and digital, about

digital relationships of people that had bought online, only 30% of those people

got any sort of communication from the brand outside of com, confirmation of

purchase and confirmation of shipping.

And of that 30%, only 5% of the communication about getting to know them.

Hmm.

68% was about writing a review.

And so this idea of if you are really trying to create relationships with your

internal or external customer, you have to invest in understanding and knowing

all the things that drive people's motivations, not giving them some really

interesting deck that is lovely and important, but it's not where you start,

Yeah, I mean, so much of the customer experience is not about the customer, and

I'm like, yeah, your customer experience is part of your brand experience.

Because it's not the customer.

The customer's experience is quite terrible.

You're being kind of rude, Remi, enforcing that they haven't bought enough.

Please buy more.

'cause you never even thanked Dom for buying the first thing

yes.

or have a moment in between.

You just keep reinforcing that whatever you did do with us is not enough.

That's the customer's experience

and I'm like.

Yeah.

So I have these two phrases when I'm looking at any sort of initiative that we,

when I was back in the company days, we're putting forward about, to put forward

is, is this in service to the brand or is this in service to the customer?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And your point, Casey, the majority of the things we try to push out

are in service to us as a brand because it's about the next purchase

versus saying the longer road, quote unquote, will actually get you

better results, more profitability, more full price, all the things

people want if you invest in the right relationships deeply enough.

Yeah, it, it sort of reminds me that you know, and many people want to draw

a distinguishing line between a B2C relationship and a B2B relationship

in terms of how you sell something.

And one of the things that you often hear, and any anyone who claims expertise in

B2B sales is that people buy from people.

That even though it's a business to business sale, right?

It's all about the relationship.

People buy from people.

But at the end of the day, in that B2C relationship, it's the same thing, right?

It's it's a brand.

It's still a brand, and your customer happens to be a consumer, in this

case, not another business, but that consumer wants to treat the brand

like they're buying from a friend,

And I think that's a big thing is changing the word relationship.

You can have maybe relationship over here, but I think when you go

into like enterprise sales and you go into luxury, it's friendships.

They are long, multi-year friendships.

But I, I, I think, I think what's interesting, and this is, this is one

of the, you just made me think of this.

The friendship piece to me feels deep right to, and I think that's

the ultimate goal, is to get to a level of depth of understanding

where I know what Casey's gonna say before she says it.

I know how Ricardo is gonna react to this change in pricing or product.

So that investment to your point.

Whereas relationships here could be superficial if,

depending on how you do them.

But I think that at the end of the day, the idea of getting to understand people.

At on their terms with what is important to them, and connecting in

that way is really, really critical and unfortunately, incredibly undervalued

and underserved in all industries.

It's not just

Yeah,

Yeah.

when you think of customer experience.

How do you break it down to connect, deliver, and transform?

Yeah, so for me, the, the full, the full kind of journey is connect,

assess, deliver, exceed, transform.

And I, you'll appreciate this being people who worked in the retail worlds.

I hated that it actually spells a word because words.

Are usually programs and programs are usually about compliance.

And so I was like, yeah,

That.

but I could not have, I mean, I didn't create it that

way, just I was like, oh no.

Oh no, it spells cadet.

Um, anyway, so, and then I said, maybe start with a French Cade.

Maybe that sounds better.

I don't know.

But, um, anyw who, uh, the idea of it is when I, when I kind of put this

together, it was, how do you think about.

Simplification of a human relationship journey.

And so what we were just talking about is a version of that.

So connection is this idea of getting to know somebody and it's not the

person standing at the front door of a retailer saying, hello, welcome, hello.

That's greeting.

But people say connect.

They equate connection with greeting in the traditional way of welcoming people.

I'm talking about connection as to being curious, asking questions.

Learning, listening at a at a plus five, which means listening

with a will listening with a willingness to be altered.

That active listening idea where you're gathering information, you're

asking questions, you're really trying to understand the consumer or their

employee in this, you know, because I have obviously both of those customers.

And once you understand, then the assessed part is to say,

okay, based on the stated needs.

That they've given me and the unstated needs that I've heard in the conversation.

Here are the offerings that I have to match, and that can be

something that exists already.

It's like, oh, we have to go create that, or, wow, we've never thought about that.

But the assess pieces, taking data and making kind of a strategy out of it,

the deliver piece is flawless execution.

So Casey, you and I were talking before we started recording about

the gene, your, your customer.

We wanted a new denim.

If that person wants denim in a size 32 30, flawless

execution is, let me go get it.

Here you go.

Done.

Woo.

No friction, right?

Frictionless.

Flawless execution.

That's stated needs.

The exceed part is the unstated needs.

So for example.

While you were talking to that customer, they, you might find that

they actually are from out of town.

They're visiting and they really were telling their friend they really

wanna try some cool new restaurants.

They just don't know where to go.

And you're like, Hey, by the way, I have a list of five restaurants

that I'm gonna give you.

Which I think are the really the best ones that you would wanna go to here.

And by the way, I know two people at some of these restaurants if you want, I'm

happy to call, and they try and make a reservation for you, that's an exceed.

They didn't ask you specifically to solve that problem, but you were listening

and you were putting it in your kind of like, you know, oh, I, I may be

able to use this later on to make their cus their experience that much better.

And then transform is this amalgamation of how do you get people, how do you

keep investing and investing in ways.

That people feel deliver was, was flawless, exceed, was flawless.

It now changed the way I feel about you, the brand, and potentially the

entire industry about how people should be shopping, showing up,

interacting, whatever it might be.

Yeah.

Barney is like literally had, would make 50 lunch reservations before noon every

day.

You know, just from, just from like a small group of the personal shoppers.

Right.

You know, and it, it does become that, you know, I always say like there

it shifts from retail to hospitality at a certain level, and it comes

from culture, not a price point.

Hun, it's about thoughtfulness and intentionality.

And I'll tell you yesterday I was at lunch with a colleague.

And we sat down and we were talking and we hadn't, we were catching up.

So, you know, when the, the waitress comes over and she's like, are you ready?

You're like, not yet.

I'm so sorry.

I'll be right.

So she comes over for the third time.

She says, Hey, I'm, I don't wanna bother you, but a table of 12 is just about

to order and I would really love to get your order in first so you're not waiting

for four, five minutes for your food.

She walked away and I said to my, I was like, that is the most amazing.

So, I mean, that, that is exceeding expectations because she also was

like, oh my God, like she made, they're sitting down, they want to

eat, they're talking, I wanna make sure I give them what they want.

It's gonna be strange if I, if they're, so, I'm gonna try and get ahead of

this and actually try and make their experience so they're not complaining

about where their food is later on.

Like those little, and that's, that's at a restaurant, it's not luxury.

It was just a cafe.

And so to your point, it's not about price point, it's about intentionality,

thoughtfulness and taking action and being in, and being kind of, you know,

in the driver's seat of doing something.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So those are all great examples of all these positive and

things you can do to exceed.

Right.

I want to go a little, for a moment, go in the other direction a little bit.

I mean, is there an accepted practice that you would say is just complete

nonsense or you know, should go away?

In the world that we're talking about right now, if I could burn every checklist

that was ever created in any company, I would be the happiest person in the world.

I don't wanna create any sort of ozone layer issues.

So maybe we do something different with them, recycle them and make a lovely bag.

I don't know, but get rid of the checklist.

Checklists foster compliance.

Hmm.

Oh yeah.

Yep.

A hundred percent

I'm gonna, I'm gonna drop my mic there

Yeah.

That's a

mic drop moment.

Yeah.

Yep.

What about you?

I mean, you've asked me what would you get rid of?

Or what do you, what do you think is a crazy practice that exists?

I would delete emails.

Every single

It uhhuh.

delete all emailing.

I don't care if you're emailing your aunt, you're a business par.

I would delete the whole aspect of email.

I, it, it's funny you say that because what, what I would,

I usually pick on email too.

I'm, I'm fond of saying that email is where information goes to die.

Because so often, right.

You know, how many times are you in an a, a meaningful meeting and someone says,

oh, we'll email that after the meeting.

And okay, well, great.

That, that's great.

But it's gonna sit in email and no one is gonna take action on it

because every single person in this meeting will move on to the next one.

And forget that you emailed that, and it's gonna sit in everyone's

inbox and not, go totally untouched.

Which, which is why I come back to you.

That's where information goes to die.

If it really was useful, give it out at the meeting or give it

out after the meeting, it's fine.

But don't just send it in an email where it's just gonna sit as an attachment

and, and no one will ever look at it.

Yeah.

and, and to that point also, find out the vehicles and the ways

people want to receive information.

To be useful.

And this is like the batch and blast emails of, you know, the, of

the past and present where everyone is treated exactly the same.

You know, it's interesting, I Casey, I'm gonna back to a Bergdorf Goodman

exper example that you'll probably love.

One of the things that we would do every year, which I think is

wonderful, is your top clients.

You would, you would wanna give them something.

Yes.

Presents.

Right, exactly.

I mean, listen, they're, they've invested in us all that kind of, we wanna make

sure we're showing our appreciation.

But the Neiman Marcus group, which at the time owned Bergdorf,

wanted to programatize it.

And so it was the exact same thing for every single customer, and say it

at that one particular year was two Baccarat, crystal champagne flutes,

which are beautiful, but if you're spending half a million dollars at a

store, you probably don't need two.

You were like, oh my God, I was missing two.

Thank God you've completed my set.

Right?

So, so I don't think that was probably something that we were like looking

for, and let's just say it cost $500.

I have no idea how much it costs.

Let's say $500.

What if we had given that $500 to their sales associate that works with them

Mm-hmm.

That can create relevant gift that is, that is because they know that

person, what they like, how they live their lives, what they're missing.

I mean, these are the people that would go to their weddings and bar mitzvahs

and funerals and their graduation.

So there's such a level of connection, and I guarantee you,

we probably could have spent less,

Yeah.

Most likely, there's something

you could have saved

wanna splurge on, that they haven't.

Somebody who collects forneseti plates.

Yeah.

Something thoughtful.

you know, like it didn't have to be big.

It had to matter.

It had to matter.

Exactly.

didn't need to spend a whole bunch of money necessarily.

I just needed to make sure they knew that I'm paying attention

and I'm giving you a gift.

That's about

you.

And I think that that,

yeah, I think that

I think, and I think Ricardo, go back to your email point.

The person who sent the email feels they can check the box.

'cause now when someone says you send the email, like, yes,

I sent it.

Yep.

I sent it.

Everyone has it.

So they can check it out.

Oh, yeah.

But then, then it, it wasn't relevant to the majority of people, so what needed to

get done or the benefit of it never got

realized.

Right.

So there's a, there's a, you know, I, I like say I'm such a huge proponent of this

whole commitment versus compliance concept for all the reasons we're talking about.

I love that.

What scares you most about where the industry is headed right now?

This is like a defining moment In 2025, three months ago was

very different than today.

We're going into holiday and we're gonna start a new year with a

completely different mindset, I believe.

What do you think the mindset's gonna be?

There's a, before AI and an after AI, I feel like we're right in the middle

of having to do something about it, but we're coming into a technology freeze

for holiday, so we actually just need to think about it because nobody's

gonna do anything about it in retail.

But come Q1, we're gonna have to do

things.

And I don't know if AI is what scares you most about the industry is headed

right now, but there's a lot of things happening I'd say right now where a lot of

companies have a lot on their plate, a lot of decisions to be making from technology

to business to consumer experience.

But yeah, just in general, like what scares you about going.

I, it's funny 'cause having been in retail for 30 years specifically

retail, but that rounded for 34.

I feel like that industry, there's a lot, it's it's a rollercoaster, right?

There's eps down to the peacock, Martha, the feather duster.

So there have been many things that have scared me about retail

over the, over the over time.

And this, as you said, AI is very interesting.

Another big, big, big, huge one for the, my concern is two things twofold.

One, as an industry, we get very enamored by bright shiny objects.

And so without foundational kind of strength to layer on other

things is kind of, it's not a good idea, let's just put it that way.

And so I think we wanna get credit for being at the forefront or being in

the conversation or investing in the things that the world has talking about,

which by the way, are super important.

Don't me wrong.

But if I think about what really matters to employees and to consumers,

it's like Maslow's Hierarchy.

There are basic, fundamental human needs that if we got those right.

More customers would come to us, more customers would state us.

It's all the things we've been talking about.

You don't need AI to build a customer relationship.

AI can really help you serve up great data to make it easier.

So I love that.

But I think we have to be careful that we don't look at technology as

the experience, but rather look at it as the enabler of the experience.

And you have to define as a brand, what is the experience you wanna give

based on who you are and what kind of experiences your customer want, based

on how they want to interact with you?

And then how do you make that work?

And I will tell you, having done this for 30 years, it's not always

about the most expensive investment.

It's all the things we just talked about.

It's actually about getting really clear, really focused, and really

investing in the in the right things.

And because I feel like that's still a challenge.

I feel like the industry's magic has been lost.

Hmm.

Retail.

You started off, we started off talking about this and, and Casey

you said retail's emotional and I feel like the emotion in retail,

unless you're literally in luxury and even one, you could argue that's

probably not the same anymore either.

Has really it's, it's, it's doesn't happen at scale.

Mom and pops, one-offs, great little like boutiques that are curating.

There, you find magic.

But magic at scale is something I think we have to kind of try to reclaim.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, and you're, and you're so right that so often in the industry, the, the

latest and greatest technology becomes that bright, shiny object that distracts

people from that core, basic function.

And, and you forget that, that.

The technology is just supposed to be a tool.

It's not supposed to be the experience.

Like you just said, it, it's, it's a tool that lets you do other things.

And AI may be one of the most amazing tools that a retailer

can use if used, right.

But it doesn't become the experience necessarily, it it,

it should enable new experiences.

And I think that's one of the, to me, that's the things that I'm, I'm hope

we end, end up seeing from this is that there's a lot of interest right now in,

in people wanting to use new, and this is true with every new technology, right?

You ask the question, well, what can this new technology do that helps us reduce

costs, become more efficient, right?

Versus asking the question, what can it let us do that we could

never do before that might help us deliver a new experience that

brings more customers to us?

And I think that's the question that not enough people are asking

that, that I'm, I'm hoping after holiday, maybe that's the, the number

one question we'll see.

Yes.

And to your point, AI will be wonderful for the things you talked about at,

I mean, just at, at the baseline of removing cost, creating efficiency.

My question, my challenge to any company that uses AI is what are you

doing with the money you're saving?

Where is it going?

Are you investing it back in the bottom line in the share price?

Are you investing it back into your most important resource, your employee?

How are you actually creating a flywheel that's a positive one, versus having

these moments of, we have this big savings money, it's a one time event.

Let's just put it in the share price.

Got a bump, but now we're no further along.

I remember when I would.

We were the darlings of Wall Street for the longest time, and we wanted

our share price to keep going up, and so we kept reinvesting into the share,

but we had huge systems that needed to be upgraded around micro merchandising.

Remember when the people first starting to talk about micro merchandising

and we didn't do it, and then all of a sudden the business tanked, and

then we really were saying, well, one way we could actually get more

relevant by having micro merchandising.

We didn't have the money.

To invest in the system because we had used that somewhere.

I think this kind of being really clear about what's gonna get you

to the long-term promised land is tough in an industry where we

work seasonally, quarterly, fast,

and so our brains are not necessarily wired to that ability to feel

okay with things that take longer.

Yeah.

And I think it goes back to what point you made earlier that you

know, is, is are you doing that in service of the company or are you

doing it in service of your customer?

Exactly.

Yeah.

Thanks for listening to that, Ricardo.

I see.

That's my big, that's

You're like, I've taken one

so, yeah.

Yeah.

Well, so speaking of takeaways last question for you here.

What, if there's one takeaway, you want any leader that runs out and gets a

copy of your book tomorrow, what's the one takeaway you want them to remember

after they're done with the book?

Yeah.

It's kind of a little bit in the title, which is belief that gets

translated into commitment is the ultimate competitive advantage.

Like I really cannot stress that enough, that culture of commitment

are the way that people are going to drive better results.

Better profitability, long-term success.

And yes, it is a up, I call it a frontloading of effort that

has a huge ROI in the backend.

So if that's, there's one thing I would say that would be it.

That's

Makes sense.

Yeah.

Yep.

It takes the leaders of an organization to, you know, create that culture,

execute that culture, inspire it and make those tidal wave changes.

If the executives aren't leading.

That it's very hard for everyone else to maintain that

passion and that capital LOVE.

There's always, you know, they always say there's a thin line between love and hate.

And when you work for brands that you believe in, that you feel connected

to and you love, everything that happens at work can impact you.

It impacts you.

Yes.

Like I loved Ralph Lauren.

I moved across the country to only work at Ralph Lauren.

He was the only person I wanted to learn corporate from.

It was higher letter or restraining order.

You pick, you go nowhere.

Because I love you.

I wanna learn from you.

I wanna be a part of your dream.

Yes.

And I guarantee you the filters that you use.

For decision making, were aligned with the filters of the brand because you loved it

and you understood it at a cellular level.

And it makes a huge difference.

And that's why I say compliance requires supervision, commitment

creates partnership, and it's, you are part of Ralph Lauren.

You weren't working for Ralph Lauren, right?

I totally felt like I was part of it.

yeah.

I mattered.

I had never met him before, but I knew that I mattered.

He was in good hands.

I got you.

I will dig my heels in to

do whatever it takes.

Whatever it takes.

Right.

It's funny, the um, when, when, back in the day when GAP was the darlings of

Wall Street, like I worked there for nine years and I, I've been very lucky 'cause

I've worked, every brand I've worked for, I absolutely love like you Casey.

I, I've had such an amazing experience been so lucky.

But when recruiters would try to get people from GAP to

leave, they wouldn't leave.

And so they referred to it as bleeding blue that people who worked there

were, like you said, you were like, it was like your Ralph Lauren example.

Like, it was like everyone was there for the right reasons.

And when you're part of that, it's so inspiring, right?

It's, it's so, if you see it, it can be, and I think that we've all experienced

that in our lives, and so why not?

Why isn't that possible at scale?

It, it can be,

Yeah, a hundred percent.

Well, I can't tell you how much I've enjoyed this conversation.

I think the entire audience and Ricardo know how much I've

enjoyed this conversation.

I wanna keep you forever and just fold you up and put you in my pocket.

We'll go shopping at Bergdorf together.

I know some people

Yes.

Well, I'm gonna I'm getting the book and that will definitely be in my pocket.

Um, I'll definitely be gifting this book for the holidays to a handful of people.

Uh, I, it's so important an initiative especially to be having right now.

And so uncertainty, so much uncertainty in the environment.

We have to be reminded, what do you believe in?

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Go back to what do you believe in?

Why are you here, and how do you develop that?

And I, I just.

I just really appreciate you sitting down with us, sharing your thoughts and

experiences about everything that you put into the book and into your career.

I know our listeners and viewers are going to be picking up a copy.

We're gonna make it super easy for them.

Yep.

have links in the show notes.

Yep.

And all the great takeaways.

And there's just so much I, I think we all took away from chatting

with you today, around culture, belief, commitment, so many things

that retail leaders, I hope will.

Learn from your book and embrace and weave into their own organizations.

So I just really wanna thank you for joining us and sharing

all of this with us today.

And everybody go out right now and, and get Matt's book, Built on Belief.

Thank you so much for having me.

I loved being able to have a conversation with you both.

Super fun too, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Well, I'd say that this episode is a wrap, but I'd like to just hit

record for you know, another two

so dinners in the city soon,

Absolutely hold you to that.

You heard it here, everyone

That's right.

Have a great one and, enjoy.

Thank you both.

I really appreciate it.

Thank you!

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I'm Ricardo Belmar.

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