S2E10 Brendan Witcher

[00:00:00] "Strategically Lazy": The Retail Truth Nobody Wants to Hear

[00:00:01] Brendan Witcher: ​you got too many people that are in positions of decision-making that are strategically lazy.

[00:00:07] Casey Golden: That's Brendan Witcher, Global VP of Product and Content at ShopTalk, live with me at ShopTalk Fall.

[00:00:14] "Strategically lazy." I mean, that's a bold thing to say at Shop Talk, and frankly, out loud

[00:00:20] Ricardo Belmar: And he's got numbers too. Amazon owns 76% of retail media, Walmart 6%. Everyone else fights over the rest. We talk about what retailers should be doing.

[00:00:30] Casey Golden: Plus why the tech companies building AI agents worry him more than shoppers do.

[00:00:36] Ricardo Belmar: His fix is three words: think it through

[00:00:41] Casey Golden: I love this man. This is Retail Transformers recorded live from Shop Talk Fall in Nashville

[00:00:48] Live from Shoptalk Fall: What You Need to Hear

[00:00:56] Ricardo Belmar: Welcome to Retail Transformers, candid conversations with the [00:01:00]visionaries shaping the future of commerce.

[00:01:02] I'm Ricardo Belmar.

[00:01:03] Casey Golden: And I'm Casey Golden.

[00:01:04] Welcome back, Retail Razor fans. This is the podcast where we cut through the clutter to bring you the sharpest insights from the leaders redefining retail, careers, and the future of retailing.

[00:01:15] And Ricardo, I'm feeling, one, completely under the weather, so if you're watching us on YouTube, I'll take a little grace right now. and the FOMO.

[00:01:23] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.

[00:01:24] Casey Golden: And just a bit upset that you went to Shoptalk Fall without me!

[00:01:29] Ricardo Belmar: I did, I did. But you were missed. You were definitely missed. But I did come back with four really good episodes for us though, all recorded live, in person, in the Rethink Retail Creator Studio. And today's episode's a good one. It's with Brendan Witcher, Global VP of Product and Content at Shoptalk, and of course famously known as a top Forrester retail analyst prior to that for, oh gosh, gotta be at least over a decade, maybe more.

[00:01:54] I've lost track. I mean, I know that's how long ago Brendan and I met that many years ago

[00:01:59] Casey Golden: What are you talking about? [00:02:00] We're all 20

[00:02:01] Ricardo Belmar: Well, we were all kids when we started in this industry. I mean, it's retail, right? Everybody starts when they're young.

[00:02:07] Casey Golden: So now he's the person shaping the content at Shop Talk and Grocery Shop also, right?

[00:02:14] Okay. What big ideas did he say that I need to hear, our audience needs to hear. What's up?

[00:02:22] Ricardo Belmar: Well, for starters, he thinks a lot of retail leaders are strategically lazy. They grab a stat that says what they already wanted to hear and then call it a strategy.

[00:02:33] Casey Golden: Ouch. I mean, I've sat in that meeting probably more times than I'd like to admit,

[00:02:38] Ricardo Belmar: Haven't we all?

[00:02:39] Casey Golden: with people I adore

[00:02:40] Ricardo Belmar: Exactly, right? Yeah. I mean, his, his example is retail media, which I admit hurts a little bit. But, yeah, he pointed out, rightfully so, Amazon has, like, 76% of it. Walmart has the next 6% or 8%. , So before you jump in, if you're new in retail media just because everybody's talking about it, you do the math on what's left for you, and then [00:03:00] what?

[00:03:00] Casey Golden: Fair. Fair.

[00:03:01] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:03:02] Casey Golden: What else?

[00:03:02] Ricardo Belmar: Well, he gave me a line that I told him I am absolutely gonna keep stealing because I love this. He said, "Knowledge is the absence of questions."

[00:03:10] Casey Golden: Ouch. I think I'm gonna, I'm gonna need to sit with that for a second

[00:03:16] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:03:17] Casey Golden: I'm probably gonna steal

[00:03:18] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah

[00:03:19] Casey Golden: I'm guessing AI agents came up with it because, you know, Shoptalk retail conference, is anybody talking about anything other than agents?

[00:03:31] Ricardo Belmar: Well, it was tough to find that, but so yeah, obviously agents came up, in the conversation. Interestingly, some interesting comments you'll hear from Brendan, he thinks that shopper behavior's actually pretty predictable, despite how everybody seems to be so focused on the shopper side of, of agentic commerce.

[00:03:46] But what worries him more is what he calls the middle layer. It's the tech companies building the agents and what they're gonna do with your emails and content before a shopper ever even sees it

[00:03:55] Casey Golden: Yeah, I agree. I'm not worried about shoppers. Like, we're creature-- people are creatures of habits

[00:03:59] Ricardo Belmar: [00:04:00] Yeah

[00:04:00] Casey Golden: We, we all wanna feel like the same way

[00:04:04] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm. Right.

[00:04:05] Casey Golden: out here

[00:04:06] Ricardo Belmar: Right.

[00:04:06] Casey Golden: for like some miracle,

[00:04:08] Ricardo Belmar: exactly. Yeah.

[00:04:09] Casey Golden: like stop screwing up,

[00:04:10] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:04:12] Casey Golden: Like, just screw up less. okay. So I'm, really sorry that I missed it. I'll have to make sure... I'll be at the next Shop Talk

[00:04:21] Ricardo Belmar: There you go

[00:04:22] Casey Golden: Before we get into this conversation, Ricardo, why don't you tell everyone about the next event

[00:04:31] Ricardo Belmar: Hmm.

[00:04:32] Casey Golden: The Retail Razor Show is gonna be joining?

[00:04:34] Retail Agent Con: 500 Retailers Take on AI Agents

[00:04:34] Ricardo Belmar: Why, I'd love to. Thank you. I'm excited to share with everyone that next month we'll be joining Retail Agent Con, along with over 500 of your retail peers. We're gonna take an honest look at where the industry stands across merchandising, order management, inventory control, store operations, and specifically what agents are doing today in each of these areas.

[00:04:55] Where are the real wins? And what has to change in your org chart to really make [00:05:00]sure those results hold? So it's going to be a live virtual event on November 17th from 11:00 AM to 3:00 PM Eastern, and it's produced by our good friends at IHL Group with ClearSight AI. You'll hear from retail leaders like Glenn Allison of Tractor Supply, Scot Sager of David's Bridal, Justin Ewig of Artisant Lane Furniture, Dr. Janet Sherlock will talk about the organizational changes needed for agents and humans to work together. And analysts like Greg Buzek and Jerry Sheldon of IHL Group, and me, I'll be there too, for practical conversations about, you guessed it, AI agents. Retailers attend free. Sponsorships and individual tickets are available as well for solution providers.

[00:05:41] You can learn more at www.retailagentcon.com. Don't miss it, and register today.

[00:05:48] Casey Golden: Okay. I'm super stoked for that one. if you're watching us on YouTube and you saw me disappear off screen, my puppy is dreaming underneath my chair. He's, like,[00:06:00]

[00:06:00] Ricardo Belmar: It's too cute.

[00:06:05] Casey Golden: So now let's go to our conversation with Brendan Witcher, recorded live and in person at Shoptalk Fall in Nashville.

[00:06:14] ​

[00:06:20] Why Great Events Make You Feel Different

[00:06:20] Ricardo Belmar: Now welcome everybody. Thanks for joining us We are live in person at Shoptalk Fall, and I am pleased to be joined this time with Brendan Witcher, VP of, Content and Product, right, at Shoptalk. And well, I think what this is... This has been, like, a long time in, in planning that we've been wanting to get you on the show.

[00:06:39] Yes. 'Cause al- always love every conversation we have. There's always... I learn a lot, and you always have a fantastic take-

[00:06:45] Brendan Witcher: Thank you ...

[00:06:45] Ricardo Belmar: on things.

[00:06:46] Thank you.

[00:06:46] so maybe a good place to start, let me... I mean, how, how are you feeling about Shoptalk Fall? I, I know when we've talked before, you- you've talked about, how to do things differently to really serve different parts of the [00:07:00] audience that shows up.

[00:07:01] Right. So how are you feeling about the show as we're... We're only at day one.

[00:07:04] Brendan Witcher: Yeah. I, I, I feel r- really, really good about it. I mean, to be quite honest with you, I think it's really important to understand that as an event company, we have two choices. We can be the kind of company that just focuses on number of sessions- Yeah

[00:07:16] number of speakers- Mm ... number of topics covered, or, which is what our approach is, and what we're changing more towards even more in the future, is this idea of, how are we enabling the ecosystem of relationships- Mm ... at shows?

[00:07:28] Ricardo Belmar: Okay.

[00:07:29] Brendan Witcher: Right? How are we thinking- Yeah ... about the brands who wanna talk to retailers, the retailers that wanna talk to technology people, the peers that wanna talk to other peers in their industry- Mm-hmm right, sort of thing. So the, the content we're creating, the products we're creating, which is why product is in my title as well as content-

[00:07:45] Mm-hmm. Yeah ... is really about how are we enabling, not just hoping they happen, but enabling these conversations and these sort of connections to happen where people can come to the show and be productive on a number of levels.

[00:07:57] I think the old, traditional way of looking at a [00:08:00] show and saying, "I'm gonna go find out what the tech vendors are- Yeah ... and I'm gonna go and find out what people say on stage-"

[00:08:05] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah ...

[00:08:06] Brendan Witcher: that's, those are table stakes. Like, everybody's- Yeah ... doing those

[00:08:08] Ricardo Belmar: Everybody does that,

[00:08:09] Brendan Witcher: right. You know?

[00:08:09] Ricardo Belmar: You can do that anywhere.

[00:08:10] Brendan Witcher: Hopefully I don't- Yeah ... lose my new job by saying this. Right? But you can go to any show and get that.

[00:08:15] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. Right.

[00:08:16] Brendan Witcher: But the reality is, is- There are very few shows that are out there that are thinking about did the person walk away maximizing the opportunities to go back and become the best professional of what they are?

[00:08:30] Yeah. And that includes whether I'm an email marketer or a- Mm-hmm ... CEO of a big box retailer, or a vendor at a small company- Yeah ... startup, or a vendor at a giant conglomerate, or a media person that works for- Yeah ... the Wall Street Journal- Mm-hmm ... or someone that just works for Modern Retail, like a smaller- Yeah

[00:08:46] sort of, you know, outlet. Like, there's all sorts of attendees.

[00:08:49] Ricardo Belmar: Right. Right.

[00:08:50] Brendan Witcher: And there's all sorts of people. Yeah, with different needs and

[00:08:52] Ricardo Belmar: d- And each of them- And, and different requirements.

[00:08:54] Brendan Witcher: Yeah.

[00:08:54] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:08:54] Brendan Witcher: As a podcaster, you have- Yeah ... needs and requirements. Right. Your audience has needs and requirements just [00:09:00] listening to this, and they want- Yeah

[00:09:00] certain things out of it, right? Right. So I'm really looking at the whole ecosystem and saying, "Are we doing the kinds of things at our show that make someone go," maybe not can see the difference, but can feel the difference.

[00:09:14] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:09:15] Brendan Witcher: Like, that to me is really important.

[00:09:16] Ricardo Belmar: I, I like the way you put that because the You, when, when everyone who leaves an event, right?

[00:09:22] Usually what they're thinking is, you know, it, part of it is, "Well, what am I gonna remember from the event?" But I think it's very similar what i- in general we, we always tell retailers, right? Is that you're trying to create a feeling. An emotional response, because that response that people feel, that's what they're gonna remember.

[00:09:36] Brendan Witcher: Yeah.

[00:09:36] Ricardo Belmar: Right?

[00:09:37] Brendan Witcher: Yeah. And the journey we're on right now, and I, we're not there yet, I mean, we're, it's a cycle-

[00:09:41] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm ...

[00:09:41] Brendan Witcher: for us. I mean, we started this at the beginning of the year.

[00:09:43] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:09:44] Brendan Witcher: this is the year where we are testing and learning but doing more of. Mm-hmm. This idea of creating, a feeling within people that I really call the, the, the four-prong sort of like stool of this, four, four-legged stool of this.

[00:09:57] Inspired, Capable, Knowledgeable, Empowered: The 4-Legged Stool

[00:09:57] Brendan Witcher: Which is, do people feel inspired?

[00:09:59] Ricardo Belmar: [00:10:00] Yeah.

[00:10:00] Brendan Witcher: Now that's, you know, you can just, I can just put Tony Robbins on stage and be done. Right?

[00:10:04] Ricardo Belmar: Right, right.

[00:10:05] Brendan Witcher: Yeah. Like, okay. Okay. I'm inspired. Sure. Right?

[00:10:07] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, yeah.

[00:10:07] Brendan Witcher: Does that mean I'm better at my job? So let's, we need to combine that. Yeah. Right?

[00:10:11] Ricardo Belmar: Right.

[00:10:11] Brendan Witcher: With, I feel capable.

[00:10:13] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:14] Brendan Witcher: Again, I could put Tony Robbins up there with the CEO of Walmart-

[00:10:17] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah ...

[00:10:18] Brendan Witcher: who could talk about like, "We have the budget balance sheet of a small country, and so we do all these things."

[00:10:23] Ricardo Belmar: Right. Right.

[00:10:23] Brendan Witcher: And 99% of the audience would be like, "Well, we know." I

[00:10:25] Ricardo Belmar: can't do that. Yeah. Right? I can't do any of those things.

[00:10:27] Brendan Witcher: So those two things are not enough.

[00:10:29] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:10:30] Brendan Witcher: Right? So I feel inspired, I feel capable.

[00:10:32] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:10:33] Brendan Witcher: I feel knowledgeable. Like, this is another thing- Hmm ... that I find that event companies don't do really well.

[00:10:40] Ricardo Belmar: Uh-huh.

[00:10:40] Brendan Witcher: Is they don't get people to talk to the level that they need to talk to, so someone could go, "I feel like I don't have so many questions that I can't get started."

[00:10:50] Ricardo Belmar: Okay, yeah.

[00:10:51] Brendan Witcher: You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, there's those sort of like- Right ... intro-

[00:10:54] Ricardo Belmar: Right ...

[00:10:55] Brendan Witcher: like you're never gonna learn to change out a carburetor from a TikTok video.

[00:10:59] Ricardo Belmar: Right. [00:11:00]

[00:11:01] Brendan Witcher: Yeah. Sometimes you just gotta go to YouTube- Right.

[00:11:03] Ricardo Belmar: That's

[00:11:03] Brendan Witcher: right, yeah ... and watch the 10-minute video. The 10-minute version,

[00:11:05] Ricardo Belmar: yeah. Not

[00:11:06] Brendan Witcher: the 30-second version.

[00:11:06] You know, not that I know anything about carburetors- ... or changing

[00:11:09] Ricardo Belmar: them out. I- Yeah. Well, I guess it's the, it's the difference between- I'm hoping I'm right, but- Yeah. You can go to a session and hear about what someone did, or what an organization did.

[00:11:17] Brendan Witcher: Right.

[00:11:17] Ricardo Belmar: But that doesn't mean that when you leave that session you know how to replicate it.

[00:11:21] Brendan Witcher: Correct.

[00:11:22] Ricardo Belmar: Right?

[00:11:22] Brendan Witcher: Right. Inspired, capable- Yeah ... knowledgeable.

[00:11:26] Ricardo Belmar: Right.

[00:11:26] Brendan Witcher: And knowledge is really the absence of questions.

[00:11:29] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. Okay.

[00:11:30] Brendan Witcher: Right? Right. That's what I would say- Right ... on that point, right? Yeah. Last.

[00:11:32] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, good point.

[00:11:33] Brendan Witcher: And then the last one I would say is empowered.

[00:11:36] Ricardo Belmar: Okay.

[00:11:37] Brendan Witcher: Because at the end of the day, a lot of these people, whether, if, unless you're a CEO and no one challenges you because you have a bunch of sycophants around you-

[00:11:44] I think that you're in a position very often where you leave a session and be like, "That's great."

[00:11:50] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm. "

[00:11:50] Brendan Witcher: But I gotta convince a whole organization of this." Right.

[00:11:53] Ricardo Belmar: To do this,

[00:11:53] Brendan Witcher: yeah. They didn't attend the show.

[00:11:55] Ricardo Belmar: Right. They

[00:11:55] Brendan Witcher: didn't hear any of that. I'm the only one that heard all this. Right. And I gotta somehow go back and feel [00:12:00] like I-

[00:12:00] Ricardo Belmar: And be convincing

[00:12:01] Brendan Witcher: I can speak to this- Yeah.

[00:12:03] Right ... in a way that people go, "Brilliant."

[00:12:05] Ricardo Belmar: Brilliant. That makes sense. Let's do it.

[00:12:07] Brendan Witcher: That makes sense.

[00:12:07] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:12:08] You clearly understand this.

[00:12:10] Ricardo Belmar: Right.

[00:12:11] Brendan Witcher: Help us- Right ... lead this change, right? Right. So, like, those are the four things that I really- Yeah ... think. Again, trying not to be an event company, trying to be a value-based company- Mm-hmm

[00:12:22] and a relationship- Yeah ... building company-

[00:12:23] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah ...

[00:12:24] Brendan Witcher: I think puts you in a different spot of what you really focus on.

[00:12:27] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:12:27] Brendan Witcher: And as you notice, those four things I mentioned had nothing to do with session counts.

[00:12:31] Ricardo Belmar: Right. That's right. They

[00:12:31] Brendan Witcher: had nothing to do with attendees. That's right. They had nothing to do with the- Right

[00:12:33] level of the speakers, whether they're the CEOs- Right,

[00:12:36] Ricardo Belmar: right ...

[00:12:36] Brendan Witcher: or the whatevers, right? Right. Because you can learn from everybody- Yeah ... if the people that are doing things great. so to me, this is just something that in my way, in my own little way, I feel like we're trying to bring, you know, the eco- we're trying to level up the entire ecosystem together-

[00:12:53] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm

[00:12:53] Brendan Witcher: at one time.

[00:12:54] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:12:54] Brendan Witcher: Rather than trying to just be parts of that story.

[00:12:56] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. '

[00:12:57] Brendan Witcher: Cause very often those won't work if other parts aren't fulfilled. [00:13:00]

[00:13:00] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. No, I think that makes a lot of sense a- actually. And it's, it'll be good to see how, how things- I try to once in a

[00:13:04] Brendan Witcher: while ...

[00:13:05] Ricardo Belmar: evolve. Yeah. Make a little sense. I know, yeah.

[00:13:06] Once in a while or- And you're really, you're good at making sense. You know. That's why I like these conversations.

[00:13:10] Brendan Witcher: Once in a while.

[00:13:11] Ricardo Belmar: So, yeah. So okay, so let's t- talk about another, a thing that I, y- you know, would be good to make sense of.

[00:13:17] Brendan Witcher: All right.

[00:13:18] Stop Overgeneralizing Retail

[00:13:18] Ricardo Belmar: I find a lot of times when you read... When, when, you know, people are reading what's published or written, documented, what have you, about what's happening in retail, there's always seems to be a tendency to overgeneralize, I think.

[00:13:32] Oh. You know, where, w- when... As soon as you hear the phrase, "In retail, we're doing this," right? But when you say that, well, retail makes up a lot of different segments or a lot of different pockets and industries. There's size, there's scale, there's, you know, grocery's not the same as selling luxury watches, right?

[00:13:48] There, there's all kinds of variations and things. And it, there's multiple things that kinda come from that that I- I think about that I don't see a lot of people necessarily talk about. But I think you, I'm sure you have a, a, a take on [00:14:00] this. That on the one hand, there are things that, you know, one segment can learn from another.

[00:14:05] Brendan Witcher: Yeah.

[00:14:05] Ricardo Belmar: Right? Where- Of course ... because the challenge may be the same, even if the way it's implemented might vary.

[00:14:09] Brendan Witcher: Yeah.

[00:14:10] Ricardo Belmar: Right? Or, or if the target customer may be a little different. but there are also a lot of things that are not the same, and that when you overgeneralize it, you end up completely missing the mark, right?

[00:14:20] I, I, I'm thinking, like an example I can think of is, the larger the format of a store. Yeah. Like the, you know... Take a department store. it's, it's, e- al- it's alwa- everyone likes to pick on department stores from that perspective, like because what's a department, right? Department really is something different than the next, i- in my view.

[00:14:36] Yeah, yeah. And so what works in one department might not work in another department. Very true. Right? And so if I'm, for example, someone, and I said I'm a department store person, I'm trying to better understand how I'm gonna engage a customer in a department. It's not necessarily the same if the department is apparel versus housewares- Yeah

[00:14:53] versus, you know, whatever else or... And, and I think even, even I, I, I would almost argue even in grocery. I mean, if [00:15:00] I'm a grocer in a part and I have a, a wine section versus, you know, shelf stable milk, I mean, it, the engagement is a little different for the customer in question. But I think technology vendors do this a lot.

[00:15:11] They generalize and say, you, you know, talk to any retailer, well, do this for your customers. But you haven't really qualified, well, which kind of customer?

[00:15:18] Brendan Witcher: Right.

[00:15:19] Ricardo Belmar: Right? Or which segment. So how do you look at that? And you know, when you're talking to retailers and you're answering questions about this, and I, I'm sure you've done this in your background as an analyst-

[00:15:28] Brendan Witcher: Yeah

[00:15:29] Ricardo Belmar: where you see people making that mistake. Yes. Where they're overgeneralizing.

[00:15:32] Brendan Witcher: Yeah. I, I would say, Everything that you wrapped up there, everything you said right there- Mm-hmm ... I would classify in one way as being, you know, the, the biggest, the biggest problem today is that, if I can be blunt-

[00:15:46] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm

[00:15:46] Why Your Retail Strategy Is Failing

[00:15:46] Brendan Witcher: is you got too many people that are in positions of decision-making that are strategically lazy.

[00:15:52] Ricardo Belmar: Okay.

[00:15:52] Brendan Witcher: I wouldn't call it anything but that. Yeah. It's just strategic laziness. Yeah. And I don't know why they do it. They may do it 'cause they make a lot of money, and so they [00:16:00] feel like, "I've earned this spot."

[00:16:01] Mm-hmm. "I've been doing it for 30 years." Yeah. "I don't need to think about this 'cause I know."

[00:16:05] Ricardo Belmar: Right.

[00:16:05] Brendan Witcher: You know? I already know. Sort of thing. Yeah. I already know.

[00:16:07] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:16:07] Brendan Witcher: But it's strategically lazy. And, and it's, and it's strategically lazy to say, you know, I saw a data point that said, you know, 98% of people care about sustainability-

[00:16:19] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah

[00:16:19] Brendan Witcher: and then say, "We should focus on sustainability."

[00:16:22] Ricardo Belmar: Right.

[00:16:22] Brendan Witcher: That's a strategically lazy statement. Yeah. 'Cause at the end of the day, all... Like, the un-lazy thing to do is to go look at the data- Yeah ... and see how many people visit our corporate sustainability policy page-

[00:16:33] Ricardo Belmar: Right ...

[00:16:34] Brendan Witcher: before they make- Right ... a purchase.

[00:16:35] Ricardo Belmar: Right, yeah. And is anyone even measuring that, ever?

[00:16:39] Brendan Witcher: Usually the volume of people visiting that page- ... isn't, enough to create a rounding error- ... on your, on your reporting. So, like, you know, I'm not saying... Like, I'm not against sustainability as an example- Yeah ... right?

[00:16:49] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:16:49] Brendan Witcher: I think it's important. If you find it important, then do it for the reasons.

[00:16:52] Mm-hmm. But don't justify it-

[00:16:54] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah ...

[00:16:55] Brendan Witcher: with a data point that just leans into what you want- Right ... to say.

[00:16:58] Ricardo Belmar: Right.

[00:16:59] Brendan Witcher: Right? Right. That's [00:17:00] strategically lazy.

[00:17:01] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:17:01] Brendan Witcher: It is also- Yeah ... strategically lazy to be like, "Okay, everyone's talking about retail media. We should be focusing- Mm ... on retail media." All right, we should do retail media.

[00:17:08] "We should do-" Yeah. "... we should do retail media." Yeah. "Retail media, retail media." It's like, yeah, it's a, it's an interesting topic. Mm-hmm. But when you dig into it, you start to realize there are things that retail media works for, and there are things that just simply do not.

[00:17:20] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:17:20] Brendan Witcher: Right?

[00:17:21] Ricardo Belmar: Right.

[00:17:21] Brendan Witcher: And, and I guess maybe that's probably a topic I'm gonna...

[00:17:24] Let me shift over to something that has been around a little bit longer because I think-

[00:17:28] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm ...

[00:17:29] Brendan Witcher: it's more comfortable for more people to hear it like this. So shoppable video. Yeah. Been around a long time. Oh, yeah. Right. Right?

[00:17:35] Ricardo Belmar: Right.

[00:17:36] Brendan Witcher: Long time. I wrote a report on it many years ago. And one of the things that I think is really important to understand about shoppable video is shoppable video makes sense in certain scenarios-

[00:17:49] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm

[00:17:49] Brendan Witcher: and doesn't make sense in other scenarios. Sure, yeah. If I'm gonna buy a SodaStream device-

[00:17:54] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm ...

[00:17:54] Brendan Witcher: and you don't know what a SodaStream is- Yeah ... where you're making, like, shoppable video makes sense because- Sure,

[00:17:59] Ricardo Belmar: [00:18:00] yeah ...

[00:18:00] Brendan Witcher: I need to see how- Just open it, gives you an understanding, you explain ... how does this thing work, right?

[00:18:03] Right,

[00:18:03] Ricardo Belmar: right.

[00:18:03] Brendan Witcher: Do I need shoppable video to buy Advil? No.

[00:18:07] Ricardo Belmar: No.

[00:18:07] Brendan Witcher: It, there's no story behind Advil. There's no story,

[00:18:09] Ricardo Belmar: yeah.

[00:18:10] Brendan Witcher: Right? You know? Yeah. It's like, I know what Advil is. You know what

[00:18:12] Ricardo Belmar: it is.

[00:18:12] Brendan Witcher: I pop two pills, 20 minutes later, hopefully- Right ... I feel better. Right. Call it a day.

[00:18:16] Ricardo Belmar: Right.

[00:18:17] Brendan Witcher: But this is what happens, this is that strategic laziness that usually works itself over time.

[00:18:21] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:21] Brendan Witcher: Right? But when you get something new, strategic laziness is at an all-time high. Right? It's like people want to, c- and again, it could be a little bit of the things we've talked about, could be- Yeah ... American culture of being like- Mm-hmm ... you know, we need to get this solved. Yeah. I mean, I think you asked your question in the amount of time most people take in a strategy meeting-

[00:18:40] just to talk about strategy, right? Right. Like, you just asked questions and you took up 15 minutes, right? Or whatever it was. Right, right. And I think most people are like, "We only have 15 minutes to solve this problem." Yeah. It's like, no- Yeah ... that's an American culture way of- Right, right ... thinking about it.

[00:18:53] It's okay to walk away from a meeting and say, "We don't know yet." We

[00:18:56] Ricardo Belmar: don't know yet, yeah.

[00:18:57] Brendan Witcher: Right? Right,

[00:18:57] Ricardo Belmar: right.

[00:18:57] Brendan Witcher: So that's that, I think the aggregate of [00:19:00] information-

[00:19:00] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah ...

[00:19:01] Brendan Witcher: the, the strategic laziness that's going on. I think you just have too many people that aren't thinking deeply enough about strategy.

[00:19:08] Ricardo Belmar: yeah.

[00:19:08] Brendan Witcher: They're thinking about solving problems. Right. And unfortunately, they're taking ideas and calling them strategy.

[00:19:15] Ricardo Belmar:

[00:19:15] Brendan Witcher: There's a big d- That's, there's a big difference ... there's, everyone's got ideas. Right,

[00:19:18] Ricardo Belmar: right.

[00:19:18] Brendan Witcher: I got an idea right now. Right. Everyone's got ideas. Yeah. You got an idea right now. Yeah.

[00:19:21] Everyone's got them,

[00:19:22] Ricardo Belmar: right? Right.

[00:19:23] Brendan Witcher: The difference between an idea and a strategy is a strategy's actually been worked out and vetted.

[00:19:26] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:19:27] Brendan Witcher: There's some, some sort of- foresight that's trying to be hindsight-

[00:19:32] Ricardo Belmar: Right ...

[00:19:32] Retail Media Math: Amazon Owns 76%, Everyone Else Fights Over Scraps

[00:19:32] Brendan Witcher: in calculating the possibility of this- Yeah ... and if there's variables. Right, right. Right? Go back, going back to retail media, there's a reason that Amazon owns 76%- of the retail media space.

[00:19:44] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah,

[00:19:45] Brendan Witcher: yeah. And Walmart, the second number one- Right ... second person, owns- Right ... 6%.

[00:19:50] Ricardo Belmar: Right.

[00:19:51] Brendan Witcher: Like, that in and of itself is one thing to consider.

[00:19:53] Ricardo Belmar: Right,

[00:19:54] Brendan Witcher: yeah. That's 82%.

[00:19:55] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:19:55] Brendan Witcher: That leaves 18% for the rest of the people to- Right ... the whole industry-

[00:19:59] Ricardo Belmar: For everyone else,

[00:19:59] Brendan Witcher: right ... to [00:20:00] scrap over.

[00:20:00] Ricardo Belmar: Right, right.

[00:20:01] Brendan Witcher: So then you start to say to yourself, "If everyone's talking about retail media, we should focus on retail media." Yeah. But if you say, "But there's only 14% of that $44 billion that's gonna spread over everybody-" Yeah,

[00:20:12] Ricardo Belmar: yeah ...

[00:20:13] Brendan Witcher: maybe it isn't worth it. Yeah. That's the un-strategic, that's the un-lazy way of thinking about

[00:20:17] Ricardo Belmar: something.

[00:20:17] Well, it requires more analysis, right? You have to think it through, and I, I feel like it- it ties back to, you know, it- an idea doesn't have an execution plan attached to it-

[00:20:25] Brendan Witcher: Yeah ...

[00:20:25] Ricardo Belmar: right? But a strategy should.

[00:20:27] Brendan Witcher: Yeah. Right? It's one of those things where you, if you think-- I think every parent should at some point look at their children and go, "Think it through."

[00:20:34] Ricardo Belmar: That's right. Who hasn't had that mo- Think it through. What parent hasn't

[00:20:36] Brendan Witcher: had

[00:20:36] Ricardo Belmar: that moment?

[00:20:37] Brendan Witcher: And I think more leaders need to do that to themselves- Yeah, let's think this through ... and to their team. It's like- Let's think this through ... just, just those words.

[00:20:42] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:20:42] Brendan Witcher: Three words, and then leave it. Yeah. Just leave silence.

[00:20:44] Ricardo Belmar: And let it sit, yeah.

[00:20:45] Brendan Witcher: Like, think it through. It's like, you know-

[00:20:47] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah ...

[00:20:47] Brendan Witcher: on Friends when Joey would, like- Right ... say something and be like- ... "You'll get it."

[00:20:51] Ricardo Belmar: Okay.

[00:20:52] Brendan Witcher: Right? Right. It's like- Yeah ... think it through.

[00:20:54] Ricardo Belmar: Right.

[00:20:54] Brendan Witcher: Right? Right. And I think there's not enough of that going on. Yeah. And like, we laugh about it-

[00:20:58] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah ...

[00:20:58] Brendan Witcher: but at the end of the [00:21:00] day, I have to say with all honesty, and I really hope that, like- People know I'm not trying to, like, rip on anybody.

[00:21:07] Yeah. But I'm trying to speak truth here, where like that's why your strategies are failing.

[00:21:11] Ricardo Belmar:

[00:21:11] Brendan Witcher: It's not 'cause you have bad ideas. It's not- Yeah ... 'cause the tech isn't available- Right ... certainly.

[00:21:15] Ricardo Belmar: Right.

[00:21:15] Brendan Witcher: Right?

[00:21:16] Ricardo Belmar: Exactly.

[00:21:16] Brendan Witcher: It isn't because you don't have the right talent. Mm-hmm. It's because you haven't thought about the strategy you need-

[00:21:21] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah

[00:21:22] Brendan Witcher: in light of the tal- te- te- tech that's out there. Right. In light of the talent that you have. Right. In light of the amount of ideas- Mm ... you're trying to work on. Yeah. Right? Yeah. The context of those things- ... are what makes strategy work.

[00:21:33] Ricardo Belmar: Right.

[00:21:34] Brendan Witcher: And there's just not enough of that going on.

[00:21:35] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:21:36] Brendan Witcher: Period.

[00:21:37] Yeah,

[00:21:37] Ricardo Belmar: exactly. Yeah. '

[00:21:37] Brendan Witcher: Cause if you can't get that, the rest of it really doesn't matter.

[00:21:40] Ricardo Belmar: All those pieces combined are, are, are what's gonna actually lead to success. Yeah. If you don't- if you leave one of those pieces out, it's gonna fall apart.

[00:21:46] Brendan Witcher: Yeah. It's not sexy and fun.

[00:21:47] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:21:48] Brendan Witcher: It's very- It's the

[00:21:48] Ricardo Belmar: hard work

[00:21:49] Brendan Witcher: unsexy and

[00:21:49] Ricardo Belmar: hard work. It's the hard work part. Yeah. Right? It's the hard work- Right ... that has to get done to make it, to make a positive result.

[00:21:54] Brendan Witcher: Yeah. Yeah. Period, end of story.

[00:21:55] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:21:55] Brendan Witcher: You know, and that's not gonna make it into CNBC's, you know, headlines- ... or anything, right?

[00:21:59] Ricardo Belmar: No,

[00:21:59] Brendan Witcher: no. 'Cause it's [00:22:00] not a fun headline.

[00:22:00] Ricardo Belmar: Right. No, it's not. You

[00:22:01] Brendan Witcher: know, retailers and brands need to think more and

[00:22:03] Ricardo Belmar: work harder.

[00:22:05] Brendan Witcher: Need to think it through. They need to think it through. Right.

[00:22:05] Ricardo Belmar: That's definitely gonna be a headline. You know? Yeah.

[00:22:07] Brendan Witcher: One of you out there- Yeah ... one of my friends in the media, please-

[00:22:10] Ricardo Belmar: Right ...

[00:22:10] Brendan Witcher: write that.

[00:22:11] Ricardo Belmar: Write that down. Think it through.

[00:22:12] You

[00:22:12] Brendan Witcher: know? it'd be a great article.

[00:22:13] Ricardo Belmar: So,

[00:22:13] AI Shopping Agents: Consumers Are Easy, the Middle Layer Is the Threat

[00:22:24] Ricardo Belmar: well, so I'm thinking, so in, in light of thinking it through- Yeah ... here's one that I'm, I'm personally struggling to think this one through a little bit. But on the consumer side, we're in the midst right now of these personal agents I'll, I'll call, right,- Yeah

[00:22:28] that are coming out, right? Meta's Muse. There's Insight. Yeah. And, and I'm sure there's others. I'm not even remembering the name- Sure ... and, and thinking of, where they're being billed as- Connect it to all your information, to your life, and the agent can do anything for you, just about, right? Set it off, have it do your shopping for you, have it buy your travel, make your travel plans, buy your airline tickets, do whatever.

[00:22:48] And I struggle with this one because when I think it through, I think through of how much of this information do I really want these people to have, regardless of whatever they claim or, or, you know, the claims [00:23:00] they make about how they're not gonna misuse this information or not use it. But I'm, I'm curious what you think of these.

[00:23:07] And, and I don't know, have you tried any of these, by the way?

[00:23:08] Brendan Witcher: Oh, yeah,

[00:23:09] Ricardo Belmar: yeah. Okay. So, so what are, what are your, what are your thoughts on, on consumers, you know, relying on these agents and, and use them and, and I don't know, what, what are, what's a retailer supposed to think about this?

[00:23:19] Brendan Witcher: I, I, I don't think that that is a exercise in a lot of brain power.

[00:23:23] Mm-hmm. Like, that que- like, the, the, the answer to that question doesn't require a lot of brain power. Yeah. I don't, I don't think that's hard. Because I think consumers are fairly simple creatures.

[00:23:32] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:32] Brendan Witcher: We will do the things, like most of... Like, if you look at the numbers, you'll probably find that, I'm guessing here, but like 60% of people will put their own names into ChatGPT and see what it says.

[00:23:41] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:23:41] Brendan Witcher: Like, we're gonna-

[00:23:42] Ricardo Belmar: Right. Yeah, yeah ...

[00:23:42] Brendan Witcher: like, we kind of know how consumers- Yeah ... are gonna use these things.

[00:23:44] Right.

[00:23:45] Brendan Witcher: Right? Like- Right ... and there's gonna be a mix. Of course, there's gonna be a mix. Mm-hmm. There's not gonna be one way, getting back- Right ... to our earlier question.

[00:23:50] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:23:50] Brendan Witcher: There's not gonna be one way people use these tools.

[00:23:52] Right. They're gonna use it in all sorts of crazy ways and learn certain things, right? So I don't think we're at the stage yet where we have to worry about that, [00:24:00] 'cause I think-

[00:24:00] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah ...

[00:24:00] Brendan Witcher: we can make some assumptions, and we'd probably be right. Yeah. Consumers are easy.

[00:24:05] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:24:05] Brendan Witcher: The harder question to answer, which is probably the more important one, and the one that really will define what the industry turns into, is what will the tech companies do-

[00:24:15] to enable these agents to do things?

[00:24:17] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:24:17] Brendan Witcher: I'll give you an example of what I mean- Yeah ... and just how disruptive that factor is- Okay ... versus what consumers do. Yeah. A consumer could build an a- I think you and I would agree that there will be at least one human being out there that will build an agent, summarize my emails.

[00:24:32] Ricardo Belmar: Right. Yeah.

[00:24:33] Brendan Witcher: Right?

[00:24:34] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. For sure. No

[00:24:35] Brendan Witcher: doubt. I'll bet dollars to donuts- Yeah ... with any human being out there- Yep,

[00:24:37] Ricardo Belmar: that's a safe bet.

[00:24:38] Brendan Witcher: Yeah ... that there will be someone to do that. Yeah. That's not the problem.

[00:24:42] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:42] Brendan Witcher: That's not the question. That's an easy one to answer. That's gonna happen. Yeah. Period, end of story.

[00:24:46] The question will be, what does the tech company who builds that agent or who enables that agent do with the kinds of emails it could put out as a summary?

[00:24:57] Ricardo Belmar:

[00:24:57] Brendan Witcher: There's a lot of emails that are, are written [00:25:00] very loosely.

[00:25:01] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:25:01] Brendan Witcher: There's a lot of emails that are written very formally. Right, right. There's emails that are mostly imagery.

[00:25:06] Ricardo Belmar: Right, yeah. Exactly, yeah.

[00:25:07] Brendan Witcher: There's, there's- Yeah ... there's emails that have alt text as the- Mm ... primary thing that an AI is gonna read.

[00:25:12] Ricardo Belmar: Right,

[00:25:13] Brendan Witcher: right. Right?

[00:25:13] Ricardo Belmar: Right.

[00:25:13] Brendan Witcher: You know, graphic 5.2.6- Yeah. ... is behind this image. Right. Right?

[00:25:18] Ricardo Belmar: Right.

[00:25:18] Brendan Witcher: That's what the AI's gonna think it's copying.

[00:25:20] Ricardo Belmar: That's what it's gonna see. Exactly, yeah.

[00:25:21] Brendan Witcher: Right? Yeah. And then suddenly they're gonna start to say, "Well, do I need to look at the subject line?" Well, God forbid, because we know that marketers often put very misleading subject lines. Right,

[00:25:31] Ricardo Belmar: right. Yeah, yeah.

[00:25:31] Brendan Witcher: You know, like, "You've won a car."

[00:25:33] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:25:33] Brendan Witcher: But really- Yeah ... I'm talking to you about a timeshare.

[00:25:36] Right. Right? Like- Yeah ... there's, there's so much that I think, like, we need to worry about from the middle layer.

[00:25:42] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:25:42] Brendan Witcher: That's where it's really gonna be- Right ... the change.

[00:25:44] Ricardo Belmar: That's the challenge.

[00:25:45] Brendan Witcher: Yeah. The s- the, the consumer part of it's easy.

[00:25:47] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:25:48] Brendan Witcher: Like, we can imagine the scenarios.

[00:25:49] Ricardo Belmar: Right.

[00:25:50] Brendan Witcher: The challenge is gonna be what are they g- what are they gonna do is the question.

[00:25:54] Mm-hmm. The challenge is are we prepared to stay [00:26:00] abreast of all the things they're doing-

[00:26:02] Ricardo Belmar: Right ...

[00:26:02] Brendan Witcher: test these engines on a regular basis- Right ... run our emails through there, who looks at it-

[00:26:08] Ricardo Belmar: Right ...

[00:26:08] Brendan Witcher: who makes sure it's right? Right. Like, and how many- Yeah ... different engines do we need to test this on and blah, blah, blah.

[00:26:14] Yeah.

[00:26:14] Ricardo Belmar: Right, right.

[00:26:15] Brendan Witcher: And, and if it comes out wrong, who's gonna fix it- Who's gonna do that? Right ... before we need to resend it? Yeah. Right? Before we

[00:26:20] Ricardo Belmar: try again.

[00:26:20] Brendan Witcher: Like, and then- Yeah ... who's gonna run through that whole process again-

[00:26:22] Ricardo Belmar: The whole process again, right ...

[00:26:23] Brendan Witcher: on version two?

[00:26:24] Ricardo Belmar: And reevaluate. Yeah.

[00:26:25] Brendan Witcher: So, like, that to me is really what we're coming- Mm up against. Yeah. It isn't the consumer behavior.

[00:26:30] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:26:31] Brendan Witcher: Like- Interesting, yeah ... I think it's, it's, I think it's saying in a world where AI is being enabled by so many players in the space- Yeah ... and so many layers in the ecosystem-

[00:26:43] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm ...

[00:26:44] Brendan Witcher: that exists, how are we going to operate as a business where what the customer sees or experiences isn't exactly what they thought-

[00:26:54] Right ... they would see- Right ... or experience?

[00:26:55] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. '

[00:26:55] Brendan Witcher: Cause that's- Yeah ... the nature of an agent.

[00:26:57] Ricardo Belmar: Right.

[00:26:57] Brendan Witcher: An agent is- ... me telling you something-

[00:26:59] Ricardo Belmar: That's [00:27:00] right ...

[00:27:00] Brendan Witcher: and then you telling this guy- Yeah ... in the cool hat over there something. Yeah. Right,

[00:27:02] Ricardo Belmar: right.

[00:27:03] Brendan Witcher: Like, that's what we're really- Yeah ... talking about here.

[00:27:06] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, exactly.

[00:27:06] Brendan Witcher: Exactly. You're the, you're the variable.

[00:27:08] Ricardo Belmar: Right.

[00:27:09] Brendan Witcher: Yeah. You know- Yeah ... they're gonna hear what they hear. Right. I'm gonna say what I say.

[00:27:12] Ricardo Belmar: Right.

[00:27:13] Brendan Witcher: But you are a independent- Yeah ... and someone else is paying your, like, through advertising- Right, right ... you're getting paid- Through ad- yeah, through the

[00:27:19] Ricardo Belmar: advertising.

[00:27:19] Brendan Witcher: Right, exactly ... to do a certain thing a certain way. Yeah, yeah. And your technologists have views- Yeah ... on things, so at the end of the day, I think that that's what becomes important.

[00:27:25] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:27:26] Yeah, so that, that's a, a great take.

[00:27:28] I l- I love that. The, And you're right, it's interesting, but that's not what anybody's thinking about. That's not the part anyone's worrying about. Everyone's worried about the consumer- Process ... adoption right now. Right, 'cause

[00:27:35] Brendan Witcher: that's the sexy topic.

[00:27:35] Ricardo Belmar: Exactly, 'cause that's the one that gets the headlines.

[00:27:37] Right, right.

[00:27:38] Brendan Witcher: That's like, "Well, what are all the cool things we

[00:27:40] Ricardo Belmar: can think of- Right, right ... the consumer's gonna do?" Exactly, yeah.

[00:27:41] Brendan Witcher: Like-

[00:27:41] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah ... all right. Right.

[00:27:42] Brendan Witcher: But that's not the problem.

[00:27:43] Ricardo Belmar: But that's not the actual challenge that- That's not the problem ... impacts your retail business and how you, that you have to respond to.

[00:27:47] Brendan Witcher: No.

[00:27:48] Ricardo Belmar: No. Right, right.

[00:27:48] Brendan Witcher: Absolutely. That

[00:27:49] Ricardo Belmar: was a great take. Well, Brendan, I appreciate this. This was a super fun conversation. I, I always love when we do this. We're, we have to have you come back and do this again.

[00:27:56] Brendan Witcher: Anytime.

[00:27:57] Ricardo Belmar: Okay. Thank you.

[00:27:58] Brendan Witcher: So thanks.

[00:27:59] Ricardo Belmar: And that's it for us [00:28:00] from Shop Talk Fall.

[00:28:01] Show Close

[00:28:07] Casey Golden: Admit it, you loved this episode. I know you did. Drop us a five-star rating and review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or Goodpods. And if you're watching on YouTube, like and subscribe before you go.

[00:28:18] I'm Casey Golden.

[00:28:19] Ricardo Belmar: Follow us on LinkedIn, Bluesky, Threads, and Instagram, and subscribe to our Substack for highlights and bonus content. For transcripts and guest info, visit retailrazor.com.

[00:28:29] I'm Ricardo Belmar.

[00:28:30] Casey Golden: Thanks for joining us on Retail Transformers, part of the Retail Razor podcast network

[00:28:36] Ricardo Belmar: Until next time, stay sharp, be bold, and keep transforming retail.

[00:28:39] This is the Retail Razor: Retail Transformers.