S6E15 Leslie Ann Hall - AI Search Optimized for GEO & Reddit

[00:00:00] AI Is Already Judging Your Brand

[00:00:01] Casey Golden: ​ So if your brand tells a different story on TikTok, on Reddit, and on your own site, AI is gonna notice

[00:00:08] Ricardo Belmar: And AI search gives indie brands a real shot at beating legacy brands that owned SEO for decades

[00:00:14] Casey Golden: Plus why over half of Redditors check Reddit before they buy

[00:00:18] Ricardo Belmar: I sat down live at Shoptalk Fall with Leslie Ann Hall of Iced Media to understand how AI changes discovery for brands

[00:00:24] Casey Golden: Stay with us and watch it now on the Retail Razor Show

[00:00:27] Show Intro

[00:00:27]

[00:00:39] Ricardo Belmar: Welcome back to season six of the Retail Razor Show, the top-ranked indie business management and marketing podcast on Goodpods, and the original show in the number one indie podcast network for retail. I'm Ricardo Belmar

[00:00:51] Casey Golden: I'm Casey Golden. Welcome, Retail Razor fans to retail's favorite podcast, where we cut through the clutter to give you sharp insights on what's happening in retail [00:01:00]today and tomorrow. And we get real about what's driving the future of commerce

[00:01:05] Ricardo Belmar: This is season six, episode 15, recorded live at Shoptalk Fall in Nashville with Leslie Ann Hall, founder and CEO of Iced Media, an independent woman-owned agency that works with brands like L'Oreal, Walmart, and LVMH

[00:01:20] Casey Golden: Wasn't she also on stage at Shoptalk?

[00:01:23] Ricardo Belmar: She was. Earlier that day, in fact, I, I caught her panel on new approaches to digital discovery with, uh, speakers from Reddit, Depop, and Brunt Workwear. ICED Media focuses on beauty, and beauty brands are usually first to try something new, uh, which I think makes Leslie a great early read on, on GEO, you know, generative engine optimization and impact for brands.

[00:01:43] And her view is that AI search sits underneath every channel a brand runs because it reflects what the whole internet says about you

[00:01:51] Casey Golden: So if your team is telling a different story

[00:01:54] Ricardo Belmar: Then AI absolutely picks up on it, and that gives smaller brands an edge. We also get into [00:02:00] why most brands don't actually deserve to rank for all 200 of their products, what ICE Media calls bottom funnel bloat, and the path to purchase Leslie calls vibes to validation

[00:02:13] Casey Golden: Okay. So I'm loving this whole vibes to validation, and I need to hear more about bottom funnel bloat. The network is my language

[00:02:20] Ricardo Belmar: yeah. Oh, yeah. I, I think you're gonna be stealing that one for sure, you hear it.

[00:02:25] But first let me tell you about the next big event where you'll find the Retail Razor: Retail Agent Con. On Tuesday, November 17th from 11:00 AM to 3:00 PM Eastern, join me and more than 700 of your retail peers at Retail Agent Con, a live virtual event from our good friends at IHL Group with ClearSight AI. It's an honest look at what AI agents are really doing today across merchandising, order management, inventory, and store operations, and which wins are real, and what has to change in your org chart to make them stick. You'll hear from retail leaders like Glenn Allison of Tractor Supply, Scot Sager of David's Bridal, Justin Eming of Artisan Lane [00:03:00] Furniture, and Karen Beebe of Bealls. Plus Dr. Janet Sherlock on getting agents and people working together. And IHL's Greg Buzek, Jerry Sheldon, Lee Holman, and yours truly will be speaking too. Registration is free for retailers at retailagentcon.com, and tech providers, sponsorships are still available, but act fast. The deadline is November 4th. That's four hours of real world insight you can use heading into NRF's big show in January. Register today. Thank you to Retail Agent Con for bringing you this episode of the Retail Razor Show.

[00:03:32] Casey Golden: Now let's head back to Shop Talk Fall in Nashville for Ricardo's conversation with Leslie Anne Hall, founder and CEO of Iced Media

[00:03:41] Meet Leslie Ann Hall, Iced Media's AI Search Pioneer

[00:03:46] Ricardo Belmar: Welcome back to another Retail Razor episode, live and in person at Shoptalk Fall here in Nashville. honored this time to have Leslie Ann Hall, founder and CEO of Iced Media. a pleasure having you on the show today. Thank you so much for [00:04:00] joining me.

[00:04:00] Leslie Ann Hall: Thank you, Ricardo. I had a chance to listen to some of your episodes- Fantastic

[00:04:04] and I'm honored to be among such- Fantastic ... esteemed guests that you've had. Thank you. So thank you for inviting me today.

[00:04:09] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. No, that's fantastic. And, I caught, part of your session earlier today, so I know I wanna talk about some of those things because you're- have a, a topic that I think is really fascinating that every brand here I think is experiencing, and that's the- how AI is really impacting discovery in the whole consumer shopping process.

[00:04:26] And I, I like to think of this, and this is my personal perspective on it, that it's... I, I measure the impact in that it's almost creating new channels, for retailers particularly, and brands into how they interact and reach their customers. But these are channels they don't really have a lot of control over in, in my view.

[00:04:44] So I really wanted to get to kick things off, your, your take on what do you say to brands today? What are you saying to retailers that they need to be doing to really work with this changing landscape of AI in discovery in particular? Because more, so many more consumers now are leveraging [00:05:00] AI to shop.

[00:05:01] Leslie Ann Hall: Absolutely. There's so much to unpack there. Yeah, yeah. So thank you for asking one of my favorite topics. Thanks. So maybe I'll start by

[00:05:08] Inside Iced Media: Where Performance, Social & AI Search Collide

[00:05:10] Leslie Ann Hall: properly introducing myself. So, I'm obviously Leslie Ann Hall, the CEO of Iced Media. At our company, we really believe that brands benefit when they have a connected system of performance media, social commerce, and we're pioneering the future of AI search.

[00:05:26] So thinking about how those three things work together really holistically- ... is at the forefront of what we do, and we specifically specialize in the beauty category. Okay. So what's the best thing in the world about that, beauty brands are really ambitious- Mm. Right ... they're less risk averse- and they're oftentimes hand raisers to be early adopters based on all- Okay ... the new tools and technology that are rolling out. Yeah. So our panel this morning at Shop Talk was designing new approaches to [00:06:00] digital discovery. And we had such an interesting group of panelists with us. We had Reddit- we had Depop, which is an amazing Gen Z marketplace- Yeah ... for retail- Yeah. Right ... for resale, and we had Brunt Workwear, which is a very niche category apparel brand- ... for construction workers and laborers- ... that is disrupting an industry where the majority of their competitors have been around for over 100 years- Interesting.

[00:06:30] Okay ... and they're really much bigger legacy brands. Right.

[00:06:33] Ricardo Belmar: Right.

[00:06:33] Leslie Ann Hall: So

[00:06:34] GEO vs SEO: Why Indie Brands Can Finally Beat the Giants

[00:06:38] Leslie Ann Hall: going back to your question around what we call kind of GEO or generative- ... engine optimization, where we were really early at Iced Media, pioneering this playbook of how brands can compete and win- ... I think it's interesting how you brought up the idea of creating new channels.

[00:06:51] I think we think about it like it's more creating new pathways- Okay ... but instead of thinking of AI search, GEO, LLMs- ... [00:07:00] as a channel, we really encourage our clients to think about ranking an AI search and increasing- ... their share of answers as the foundation that- Okay ... drives all of their marketing tactics and channels- I see. Yeah ... across the entire ecosystem because really, AI search is a mirror for what- ... the world thinks about your brand. Yeah. And if you're- overall communication strategy is not consistent, does not- ... have continuity, it's going to be harder to come up as the best answer- ... for the products- brands have the right to win.

[00:07:37] Ricardo Belmar: Okay.

[00:07:37] Leslie Ann Hall: So I'd say that's kind of the foundational guidance- ... that we're giving. Okay. And then in terms of specific tactics, I think the biggest difference between GEO and traditional SEO is that traditional SEO really rewards more of those legacy brands- ... ones that have been around for a long time, that have building those signals for decades- and have a real [00:08:00] history with their website. With GEO, it's a much bigger opportunity for indie brands, challenger brands- ... and brands that want to compete and win because GEO is looking at fresh, new, and dynamic- Okay ... content. Yeah. So brands that are very intentional, first of all, about where they have the right to win- are the ones that are going to succeed. Oftentimes- ... brands will come to us, and they'll have 200 products in their portfolio, and they wanna rank for everything. For all of

[00:08:30] Ricardo Belmar: them, yeah.

[00:08:30] Leslie Ann Hall: But the truth is, they might not deserve to rank- ... for everything. So the number one thing- ... that we encourage is being very intentional about a handful of hero products-

[00:08:40] Ricardo Belmar: Okay

[00:08:41] Leslie Ann Hall: that you really have the right to rank for.

[00:08:43] Ricardo Belmar: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:44] The 3 Rules for Winning in AI Search

[00:08:44] Leslie Ann Hall: The second thing that we encourage is thinking very holistically about their entire strategy- ... and getting otherwise siloed teams on- ... board to work together with the same message to a diverse group of [00:09:00] customers- ... across the entire ecosystem.

[00:09:02] The third thing we recommend is making sure their content is understood- ... by both humans and machines. And machines,

[00:09:09] okay.

[00:09:09] So both y- I, I, I love this stat that we have from our partners at TikTok- ... that over half of their users want AI answers- ... combined with real results from-

[00:09:19] Ricardo Belmar: Oh, interesting

[00:09:20] Leslie Ann Hall: real people. So making sure that a- ... brand is consistent with that message, that their website is crawlable, the- ... it's structured properly, that it's signaling properly to the LLMs, but also making sure that they have the right creators, the right- ... PR strategy, the right, whether it's media tactics or- organic content to help tell that story- ... so that there's a continuity of those signals so that the AI answers are not just helping them rank, but the quality and sentiment- Ah, right, right ... of that answer is consistent with what the brand wants to be known for.

[00:09:56] Ricardo Belmar: So one of the things I take away from that that I, I feel is [00:10:00]significant here is that all because you mentioned a lot of different, tactics and, and sources, right? That LLMs and AI-

[00:10:05] Leslie Ann Hall: It can feel a little overwhelming.

[00:10:07] Ricardo Belmar: Yep. Well, it's ... But I think that in some ways these are all areas that brands would, I think would say they're trying to be active in already, or at least had at least some sort of a plan previously.

[00:10:19] But my expectation here, I guess, is that many brands probably weren't coordinating between all of those areas in a way that was, to your point, consistent about their brand and in how they tell their story to the consumer so they show up the same way at the same level in each of those different areas.

[00:10:37] So whether it's TikTok or whether it's on their product page or whether it's, discussions on Reddit or if they have user-generated content that they're leveraging, is it all ... I don't want to ... I, I hesitate to use the word unified, but I guess consistent is the right word, like as you said.

[00:10:51] Leslie Ann Hall: It is. So-

[00:10:52] Ricardo Belmar: That in, in the past maybe that consistency wasn't there, and trying- understanding that you're trying to get discovered by AI forces you to develop that [00:11:00]consistency.

[00:11:00] Leslie Ann Hall: Absolutely. And I think that's why earlier when I was talking about it's like the democratization- Yeah ... where smaller and indie and challenger brands- Right ... can compete and win. What I find especially with our clients, that For large corporations- ... it can be a lot more challenging to make sure that the organic team, the paid team- Yeah

[00:11:23] the PR team- ... the team that's merchandising your e-commerce website- ... the team that's responsible for Amazon PDPs- Right ... are all making sure that they're prioritizing the same products and the same messages. So that's number one.

[00:11:37] Ricardo Belmar: Right.

[00:11:37] Leslie Ann Hall: That's why for indie brands it can be a lot easier because- Yeah maybe there's a smaller team-

[00:11:42] Ricardo Belmar: A lot less of that legacy structure ...

[00:11:43] Leslie Ann Hall: and maybe they're not as siloed. Yeah. The second part of that that's, almost equally important is, and because I work in the beauty category, one of the things we say is the days of this product works for all hair types and all textures and all skin types is [00:12:00] over, right?

[00:12:00] Mm. Okay, right. Because when I gave that, that TikTok stat earlier- Right ... people wanna see real results from real people and believe that that- ... item, that product, that service is the best one for their unique needs.

[00:12:12] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, which is very specific, right? So- That, not at all a generalization across a product line

[00:12:16] Leslie Ann Hall: ab- absolutely, but what that also causes is that brands need to be very thoughtful about the volume of content- Okay ... the diversity of creators- Yeah.

[00:12:26] Right.

[00:12:26] Right ... making sure that people can see that product and feel like- ... "Oh, that is the one that's best for my specific needs." Yeah.

[00:12:34] Ricardo Belmar: It really appeals to me. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Exactly. So out of all of those different areas, and this is something that I picked up on, I, I suppose maybe a little bit uniquely, and it's one of my favorite moments from the show so far in, in your session, is when, Sonia Biddle from Depop said that brand marketing is so much more important now than ever before.

[00:12:53] And I know I personally feel that we've spent so much time in recent years focusing on bottom of the [00:13:00] funnel and conversion and performance marketing and driving more dollars into performance marketing, there's been less conversation around brand marketing. And I feel like ev- everything that you described and how you're gonna get that consistency to be discovered by AI implies that you're doing plenty of brand marketing because otherwise you won't even be visible at all.

[00:13:19] Leslie Ann Hall: Absolutely.

[00:13:19] Ricardo Belmar: And your consumers may not even... In, in, in, it's a new, I guess I should say, too, in, in new methods, right? New tactics for brand marketing because a lot of the old ones won't show up for a consumer if they're accessing you through AI.

[00:13:32] Leslie Ann Hall: A- absolutely, and we ironically, because ICED Media's roots are- as a performance media agency- ... we're a Meta business partner, a TikTok partner- ... a Google partner, and I can go- Yeah ... on and on. But we actually have a word for that.

[00:13:45] Bottom Funnel Bloat: The Trap Killing Brand Growth

[00:13:45] Leslie Ann Hall: We call it bottom funnel bloat- Okay ... where we think, all the time we're seeing new prospects come to us- and there's an outsized share of their spend going to- ... bottom of funnel conversion media- Right, right ... where they're just paying more to get their existing [00:14:00]customers- ... to buy more often. Yeah. And oftentimes that can result in things like being very promotional- ... doing sales, and, and really at the expense of looking and prospecting for new customers.

[00:14:12] Ricardo Belmar: For new customers. Yeah.

[00:14:13] Leslie Ann Hall: So- Yeah ... absolutely, and, what we call this new customer journey at ICED Media is from vibes to validation. Mm, okay. And what we mean by that is that brand marketing, those vibes are more important than ever, especially for me working in a, in a category like beauty where- Right

[00:14:30] people are very emotionally connected- ... to their products. Yeah, yeah. Sometimes the brand helps define them and, and- Right, right ... is part of their identity. So making sure you have that brand love, making sure that that discovery from new customers is driving demand is more important than ever. I think where the AI search of it all comes in is then you need to make sure that you're giving them that validation- to feel like they have the confidence to choose you.

[00:14:59] Ricardo Belmar: Right. [00:15:00] Right.

[00:15:00] Leslie Ann Hall: So it really works hand in hand.

[00:15:01] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, yeah. And I guess there's, there's a trust factor involved as well, right? For the consumer, they have to trust the brand. And is e- even with what we've been talking about for discovery with AI, is, is that trust factor changing in, in how it kind of manifests for the consumer and, and the brand, the brands that they love?

[00:15:18] Leslie Ann Hall: Well,

[00:15:19] From Vibes to Validation: The New Purchase Journey

[00:15:22] Leslie Ann Hall: that's why I love that TikTok stat I said earlier- Certainly that validation stage is something entirely new. Mm. I think we used to see where consumers were much more likely to see something from their favorite creator or-

[00:15:34] Ricardo Belmar: Right,

[00:15:34] Leslie Ann Hall: right ... see something unexpected, add to cart, transact. And now there's this kind of extra step, which is exactly what you're talking about, this validation stage- ... of saying, "But is this the best product for me?" Right. "Is it worth the price? Are there competitors I'm not aware of?"

[00:15:51] Ricardo Belmar: Right.

[00:15:51] Leslie Ann Hall: "Is there something that meets my needs more specifically that I'm not aware of yet?"

[00:15:56] And I think that's the biggest opportunity for brands to make [00:16:00] sure that they have those, whether it's UGC, creator-led content- Yeah ... affiliate programs- ... loyalty programs, of making sure that they can validate those claims. Yeah. So I think consumers are finding out about new things, but that extra step is going to Reddit, it's going to the LLMs- and it's wanting to make sure something's right for them.

[00:16:20] Yeah, yeah. H-

[00:16:21] Why Reddit Became the Internet's Most Trusted Source

[00:16:21] Leslie Ann Hall: how important has Reddit become i- in all of this now?

[00:16:25] It's funny, right? Because... And look, I'm not gonna get involved in, y- the Wall Street of it all- Yeah, yeah ... in terms of, y- you know- ... Reddit being either the number one training source- yeah

[00:16:37] for the LLM models- Yeah ... or Reddit entirely being ignored by the LLMs- ... based on what day it is.

[00:16:45] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, yeah. Exactly,

[00:16:46] Leslie Ann Hall: yeah. I think the first thing I'll say on that is- It's changing every day. Yeah. So it's really important for brands to be diversified in their- ... approach. In terms of the top citation sources [00:17:00] that we see in beauty, it is oftentimes Reddit, sometimes not- Yeah depending on the day. Right, right. YouTube increasingly- okay ... one of the top citation sources, not just- ... for Gemini, obviously- Oh, okay. Interesting. Yeah ... they're both owned by Google. Right, right. But really across the board.

[00:17:14] It is PR mentions specifically- ... on websites that do rankings and listicles-

[00:17:21] Ricardo Belmar: Oh, okay. Sure ...

[00:17:22] Leslie Ann Hall: and best of. Yeah, yeah. So that's a huge opportunity. That makes sense, yeah. So these, and, and actually now TikTok and TikTok Shop are oftentimes- That was my next question, yeah ... uniquely ranking- Yeah, yeah ... as top citation sources.

[00:17:32] Ricardo Belmar: Okay.

[00:17:32] Leslie Ann Hall: So absolutely Reddit is important. I can give you a little bit of information on that- Yeah- in a second, but it's also really important to be well diversified across channels. On the Reddit thing specifically, we know that over half of Redditors do what they call a final check on Reddit- Oh ... before they make a purchase.

[00:17:53] Ricardo Belmar: Oh, interesting.

[00:17:54] Leslie Ann Hall: Okay. So that's a s- and, and by the way- Oh ... guilty, right?

[00:17:57] Before I book a hotel, before I buy- Yeah ... a new running [00:18:00] shoe.

[00:18:00] Ricardo Belmar: Checking Reddit.

[00:18:00] Leslie Ann Hall: I do wanna go to Reddit and get- Yeah ... that extra stamp of approval. So that's super important. Okay. And Reddit is the number one most trusted source- ... to build consumer confidence.

[00:18:10] Ricardo Belmar: Oh, okay.

[00:18:11] Leslie Ann Hall: So Reddit is- Okay ... wildly important.

[00:18:14] I give Reddit and, and our partners at Reddit a lot of credit-

[00:18:17] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah ...

[00:18:17] Leslie Ann Hall: because I think they're doing a really good job to introduce new tools, new technology- ... and new ad products-

[00:18:24] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah ...

[00:18:24] Leslie Ann Hall: to help brands get more organic exposure on- ... Reddit as a result of being- ... a Reddit partner.

[00:18:31] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:18:31] Well, that's fascinating. Fascinating. So I get... It comes back to what I was th- thinking before, that there are all these different, as you described, pathways to the consumer that, in the past, I felt like some might have been a little optional for a brand or maybe less prioritized than before, but now it seems like you really need to treat them equally.

[00:18:50] I- in a sense, or at least give enough priority to each of them if you want to be discovered.

[00:18:54] Leslie Ann Hall: Yeah, and I think the takeaway there is, and, this came up on the panel this morning- ... as well, [00:19:00] how fragmented of a journey it is. Yeah. And I think this is really- Right, right ... a big theme. Tomorrow I'm on- the takeaways session- ... at the end of Shop Talk, so one of the things, I, I, so I've been paying attention to a lot of- Yeah ... these patterns in terms of what people are seeing. And I think now more than ever, going back to what you were saying about, bottle fu- bottom funnel bloat, conversion- Right- media, is now more than ever I see brands starting to understand the importance of whether it's multi-touch attribution or- ... not just relying on that last click to tell the whole story- Yeah ... experimenting with more branding and top of funnel initiatives- ... and then really understanding that this is a system that works together- Yeah, right

[00:19:41] versus, these are the channels that are right for me. So I don't think- ... it's necessarily that, like, all channels are created equally and they need- ... to be doing everything. Yeah. I'd say they need to consider- Okay ... the entire ecosystem-

[00:19:52] Ricardo Belmar: That's a good distinction, yeah,

[00:19:53] Leslie Ann Hall: yeah ... and be very thoughtful and intentional- about where the more niche communities are, where-

[00:19:59] Ricardo Belmar: Right, okay ...

[00:19:59] Leslie Ann Hall: [00:20:00] people that have the potential to be a prospect and the potential- ... to be a customer- ... are spending their time on the internet.

[00:20:06] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. Right, that's an, an important distinction, a great, great point to end on.

[00:20:10] Leslie Ann Hall: Yeah, amazing. Yeah.

[00:20:11] Ricardo Belmar: Amazing. Well, Leslie, thank you so much for joining me. Yeah, thank you, Ricardo. It's been a fantastic-

[00:20:14] Leslie Ann Hall: Appreciate

[00:20:14] Ricardo Belmar: your time ... conversation. It's definitely one of my favorite topics, so I appreciate it. Thank you.

[00:20:17] Leslie Ann Hall: Amazing. Thank you. Thanks for having me.

[00:20:19] Ricardo Belmar: All right. Thanks everyone.

[00:20:26] Show Close

[00:20:26] Casey Golden: I know you loved this episode, so hit subscribe and drop us a five-star rating and review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or Goodpods. And if you're watching us on YouTube, like, subscribe, and drop a comment before you go.

[00:20:39] I'm Casey Golden

[00:20:40] Ricardo Belmar: Follow us on LinkedIn, Bluesky, Threads, and Instagram and subscribe to our Substack newsletter for highlights and bonus content. For transcripts and guest info, visit retailrazor.com.

[00:20:50] I'm Ricardo Belmar

[00:20:52] Casey Golden: Thanks for joining us on the Retail Razor Show, part of the Retail Razor podcast network

[00:20:56] Ricardo Belmar: Until next time, stay sharp, stay human, and stay ahead.[00:21:00]

[00:21:00] This is the Retail Razor Show!

[00:21:01]