S6E13 No Champion in Their Title - VIP Connect Recap

[00:00:00] Teaser

[00:00:01] Casey Golden: ​ Retailers think they know how tech vendors operate. Vendors think they know how retailers buy.

[00:00:07] Vicki Cantrell: Look at my roadmap and say, 'I get that, but have you thought of this?' Challenge me, challenge me."

[00:00:14] Ricardo Belmar: At V I P Connect, Both sides found out how much they'd been guessing

[00:00:18] Casey Golden: Vicki Cantrell and Dave Finnegan join us live from RetailClub in Huntington Beach

[00:00:23] Ricardo Belmar: If you're a retailer and wanted to know why tech vendors say the things they do and why they act the way they do that makes you scratch your head

[00:00:31] Casey Golden: Or if you're a tech vendor and you've always wondered why retailers react and respond the way they do when you call on them

[00:00:38] Ricardo Belmar: This is the episode for you because no one has champion in their title, and understanding how each other's business really works is the key to real partnership that solves your business challenges

[00:00:49] Casey Golden: Stay with us and get all the answers

[00:00:52]

[00:00:52] Show Intro

[00:01:04] Ricardo Belmar: Welcome back to season six of the Retail Razor Show, the top ranked indie business management and marketing podcast on Goodpods, and the original show in the number one indie podcast network for retail.

[00:01:15] I'm Ricardo Belmar

[00:01:16] Casey Golden: I'm Casey Golden.

[00:01:18] Welcome back, Retail Razor fans, to retail's favorite podcast where we cut through the clutter to give you sharp insights on what's happening in retail today, tomorrow, and where we get real about what's driving the future of commerce. And we're just getting back from an incredible time at RetailClub AI Festival in Huntington Beach, California.

[00:01:40] We were recording live and in person. So rare, so rare, but it was amazing by itself. I can't remember the last time we had the opportunity to do this together

[00:01:50] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, 100%. And this is the first in a series of great interviews we captured at RetailClub, eight amazing episodes in all that are gonna be coming to you [00:02:00] guys across the Retail Razor Podcast Network, not just on this show. So be sure and subscribe to all of them.

[00:02:05] So let's jump into this first episode, again, live and in person from RetailClub. Actually, this one is technically from right before RetailClub kicked off, in a sense. Vendors in Partnership held their VIP Connect event, three hours of retailers and solution providers on a lawn overlooking the Pacific, talking about how each side runs its business. It was my first time attending one of these

[00:02:28] Casey Golden: What a horrible venue.

[00:02:34] Gosh, we'd be in the grass, right? I missed it, so you're catching me up here. Retailers and tech vendors both think they know how the other makes decisions. Put them at the same table, and they learn what matters to each other and why

[00:02:50] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. Why a vendor sales rep keeps asking about budget. Why, "What ROI do you need?" is the better question, and why nobody has champion in their title

[00:02:59] Casey Golden: Our guest [00:03:00] ran the event, Vicki Cantrell, CEO of Vendors in Partnership, known across the industry as the Fairy Godmother of Retail.

[00:03:09] Ricardo Belmar: That's right. And Dave Finnegan, operating partner and chief connection officer at Blackfin Partners and a former CIO and CMO

[00:03:17] Casey Golden: I mean, I think two of the most loved people in retail...

[00:03:21] Ricardo Belmar: no question about it

[00:03:23] Casey Golden: It's so nice that you can usually find them together and get both at the same time. It's like

[00:03:28] Ricardo Belmar: What, what luck wasthat, right? Only at Retail Club.

[00:03:32] Casey Golden: Well, the sunscreen's on, so let's get to it. Here's our conversation with Vicki and Dave.

[00:03:46] VIP Connect Recap: Inside the Room Where Retail Deals Get Made

[00:03:46] Casey Golden: I'm here with Vicki Cantrell and Dave Finnegan, who hosted the VIP Connect this morning from 11:00 to 2:00, bringing businesses together to talk about business.

[00:03:59] I missed [00:04:00] it, but Ricardo was there.

[00:04:01] Ricardo Belmar: was there.

[00:04:02] Casey Golden: And, uh, your first, your first- first-

[00:04:04] Ricardo Belmar: time at the VIP Connect, yeah.

[00:04:06] Casey Golden: So what was the big takeaway?

[00:04:08] Ricardo Belmar: Oh, well, I wanna hear from Dave and vicki first, and then I'll give you mine after.

[00:04:12] How about that?

[00:04:13] Vicki Cantrell: Maybe, maybe,

[00:04:14] Dave Finnegan: maybe you start with just what is VIP Connect? What, what was the event?

[00:04:17] Vicki Cantrell: Okay.

[00:04:18] What Is VIP Connect? The Event Bringing Retailers and Vendors Together

[00:04:18] Ricardo Belmar: Let's do... Yeah, let's do that, so our audience knows what we're all talking about, we're in on the, on the deal.

[00:04:23] Vicki Cantrell: Ok.

[00:04:23] Ricardo Belmar: Vicki, give us the the rundown on what is VIP Connect.

[00:04:26] Vicki Cantrell: Yes.

[00:04:27] What VIP Connect is, is a group of, of solution providers and retailers. Um, and we come to the table equally.

[00:04:38] We come into the t- into the room, although into the beautiful lawn today.

[00:04:42] Ricardo Belmar: Very, very vista lawn

[00:04:44] Dave Finnegan: outdoor,

[00:04:44] Ricardo Belmar: ocean view

[00:04:44] Dave Finnegan: Outdoor

[00:04:45] Vicki Cantrell: Outdoor

[00:04:45] Dave Finnegan: out the ocean.

[00:04:46] Vicki Cantrell: Yes.

[00:04:46] Ricardo Belmar: what a conference room should be an outdoor room.

[00:04:48] Vicki Cantrell: Yes. So we come into the room as industry experts because all of us, regardless on which side you're on, has been in the industry for so we, we put all, all those labels [00:05:00] aside and we come in. And the premise behind VIP Connect, what we really have achieved, is that we are teaching each other about the way the different organizations run, not about what their product is that they sell, both on the retailer side and the solution provider side.

[00:05:18] It's not about what they're selling or what kind of SI they are or anything like that. And on the retailer, it's not about their brand and what they do, it's how they make decisions and do business. And so it's a lot of aha moments and teaching each other because we're trying to get to business done better.

[00:05:37] Everyone Says They Do AI — Here's Why That's a Problem

[00:05:37] Dave Finnegan: Yeah. And, and the overall thesis was, you know, everyone talks about AI obviously, and we're standing on a beach at a, you know, Retail Club AI, um, Festival, and there's a huge opportunity to unlock the power of AI through partnerships, the right partnerships.

[00:05:58] Because everyone in the [00:06:00] industry is saying, "Hey, we do AI."

[00:06:02] It's almost impossible these days for, for, for retailers and for partners to break out of that, that echo chamber where everybody is saying that they do it. So what we wanted to talk about today was the existing go-to-market motion. What does that look like? It's clearly broken.

[00:06:23] Everybody is saying that they do AI, and when everybody says that they do AI, how do you make a great choice for what you're gonna do?

[00:06:30] Vicki Cantrell: And how have the questions changed? We really heard a lot today about- How, what, what the normal things that happen in a meeting cycle, in a sales cycle, and how you get to those real conversations that are gonna potentially lead to a partnership.

[00:06:46] Wow, the questions have completely

[00:06:48] How AI Has Completely Changed the Sales Conversation

[00:06:48] Ricardo Belmar: It has changed. A- and that-- I think that it's an effect of AI i- itself in both not just in AI that tech vendor is selling to retail, but just in how retailers use AI natively as it is or before they [00:07:00] even get to ...selecting an AI solution of any kind for anything else because we're all using it.

[00:07:05] Everyone's using it in that meeting for their own purpose. And I think that... I, I, I agree.

[00:07:09] That is one of the things I noticed, that the questions that getting in those early discovery meetings- you know, I think ev- every retailer's probably used to hearing, "do you have budget for this?" You know, "do you have... is there a, a project assigned for this?" your timeline for deployment?" All, all these kinds of standard things, those never change, right, in, in a project.

[00:07:26] But I think how you get there is changing because of the AI questions. So that was, to me, the big thing that... and, and at least I was great that from all the vendors, I think recognized, that, in a way, right, they, they get it, they can't lead first by saying it's AI. Because retailer assumes that they wouldn't even be talking to you if you weren't doing, if AI wasn't some aspect of what you're doing, but to me the big thing for the vendors there is understanding you gotta lead with what you're solving. Yeah.

[00:07:55] Right? Don't tell me that you have this amazing solution. Tell me what problem you're, you're, going to solve for [00:08:00] me.

[00:08:00] Dave Finnegan: Yeah. So one of the examples actually to this point that someone used was that someone said, "Hey, can we meet with you?" Yada, yada, yada. They clicked through their website. It was all about AI. It was zero about the problem that they were trying to solve, and they walked away saying, "I, I don't even know what this company actually provides."

[00:08:18] Vicki Cantrell: Right.

[00:08:18] Dave Finnegan: So we talked a lot about really great marketers, they market the problem.

[00:08:24] They don't market the solution; they market the problem. And so as we go into this, as r- retailers and vendors, marketing the problem and getting super clear on the problem clearly was an important part of the conversation

[00:08:38] What's Really Happening Behind the Vendor's Pitch

[00:08:38] Ricardo Belmar: I agree. And, and one of the things that you and I talked about, Vicki, that I thought was a big takeaway, so that to me is kind of like on the vendor side, what do you need to be aware of? But what I thought was interesting on the retailer side, to be aware of, what's the process happening behind the scenes at the vendor, and how they're positioning to you, how they're pitching you, and understanding why it's coming across that way because there actually is meaning behind it [00:09:00] on the vendor.

[00:09:00] A lot of it has to do with how the sales team, how the marketers are being measured in their own business.

[00:09:05] Because much like a retailer is trying to hit a sales number, right, and how much product, how much merchandise are they selling? Well, the vendor's got the same thing. They're trying to meet a number every quarter of how much technology are they selling, and they're all being measured on it.

[00:09:17] So every person you interact with from that vendor, somewhere behind them is someone asking them, "What's the status on this opportunity? Do they have budget?" They're getting asked the same questions that they're asking you, and that's why you're getting them. It's not because they're trying to waste your time or, you know, find the, the super-secret "in" to get in there and, and sell their solution.

[00:09:36] So as much as it is, someone's gonna ask them the question. And they're likely to get told, I think this is the part that gets left out, if the answer is, "Well, I don't know yet. We haven't gotten to that part of discussion," there's gonna be a sales manager behind him that says, "Well, move on to the next account. You don't have time for that."

[00:09:51] And, and, and that's not really what I think gets anyone to their end goal of solving problems

[00:09:55] Vicki Cantrell: I think that how that got reframed, that was a really good way to [00:10:00]explain that, and how that got reframed was really helpful. So- The retailer realizes now that there is someone behind them that is saying, "If we don't...

[00:10:12] If you can't identify who your champion is, where your budget is, et cetera, then we need to move on," because they're hitting, needing to hit quarterly numbers. And what really the retailer helped reframe is that's not the question. Budget is, not that they have budget, but that's not the question. The question is, what do you, what ROI do you need to show?

[00:10:35] What is on the, roadmap that, that you're struggling with as far as what is gonna have to... Because you don't have extra budget lying around, what do you have to do? So the retailers helped reframe. When they understood there was somebody behind asking those questions- Mm ... they then said, "Let's reframe this.

[00:10:55] I'm happy to tell you these five things." And- [00:11:00] honestly, the big takeaway from that is we all understand and agree that behavior has to change, and organization structure on both sides- Mm ... really we have to start digging into that. 'Cause we know what happens inside the vendor and the marketing manager and all of that, right?

[00:11:19] And who's gonna turn that over? Right, right. We know what happens on the retail side, who's making procurement, et cetera. And so we did end up saying, "Everybody go and take fresh eyes on your organization- Yeah, right ... and figure out how we can educate each other inside our organizations, even just to, for an education

[00:11:40] The Decades-Old Disconnect Between Business and Tech

[00:11:40] Casey Golden: Yeah, I mean, that's, they're just not having the same conversation. We've had, this problem for decades with the business side and the tech side, like not really being able to communicate.

[00:11:50] Yeah. Not being able to find business models that are aligned with each other-

[00:11:54] Yeah ...

[00:11:54] that support each other. And that, that hurts the projects going live. It hel- keeps [00:12:00] us from going live.

[00:12:04] Dave Finnegan: That sounds like the voice of, um, experience.

[00:12:06] Casey Golden: Yeah

[00:12:07] Vicki Cantrell: Yeah. Just Just a like you've

[00:12:08] Dave Finnegan: you've been in therapy for that.

[00:12:09] Casey Golden: Not yet. Not yet.

[00:12:12] Um, but it is this, we have to be speaking the same language when we're we're same rooms. And, we can't do that with badge turners. We need everybody to show up and participate- because vendors are, they're quite nice if you spend time with them.

[00:12:31] They're fun, and they'll pick up the bill.

[00:12:33] Vicki Cantrell: Look, they're, they are coming from the right place. Yeah. They're being asked certain things- Right- and it's translating rather than understanding. And the other thing I loved about that we covered was how to think about discovery. Um, you know, there's some, some things in the industry about who's your champion, who owns budget, et cetera. Uh, but we really kind of dug into how do [00:13:00] you educate about your organization?

[00:13:03] Forget Titles — Find the Real Champion

[00:13:03] Vicki Cantrell: Who can in fact be... Who can help you understand the culture of the company to know who to talk to, instead of going after titles. Should I t- This is a struggle for vendors right now. Who do I talk to? Right. Right? And it's even- Yeah ... getting worse because of AI. Yeah. Right. And so when we started to talk about what the retailers need to educate them on, from the standpoint of not titles, that was a big unlock, a big aha moment.

[00:13:34] Dave Finnegan: It goes from titles to champions.

[00:13:36] Right? Right. Because I've, we've worked with directors, and VPs, and CIOs, and CMOs, all of which could be a champion, right.

[00:13:45] Right. And so sometimes we get very, very focused on one of the p- you know, one of the people who have a C in front of their n- Right ...title, but realizing that what you're really looking for from a partner perspective is: Who's the champion

[00:13:58] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. And, and [00:14:00] nobody has champion in their title.

[00:14:01] Yes. so you're not, that's not, that's the... I, which was one of the comments someone made and that I thought was one of the

[00:14:05] Vicki Cantrell: that I remember- That, that was a good-

[00:14:06] Ricardo Belmar: no one has champion in their title. You, you have to find that person.

[00:14:09] Dave Finnegan: Yeah, but the, like, the follow-on question was being really transparent and saying, Who's the champion?" And asking- yeah ... " CIOs, who's the champion of this?" As a CIO myself, former CIO, I would have zero problem answering that question, and say, "This is the person who I've kind of set aside to do this kind of thing." Yeah. Um, so I think it's all about asking the question, doing a little legwork. In fact, we talked a lot about one of the worst pet peeves for retailers is the lack of research going into a conversation.

[00:14:43] And- never change ... and by, by making, by taking a few extra steps- Yeah ... including who's the champion- mm, um, that makes a huge

[00:14:52] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:14:53] Dave Finnegan: then changing the question from do you have budget to what kind of ROI do you need-

[00:14:56] Vicki Cantrell: Exactly. Right. Yes.

[00:14:57] Dave Finnegan: Makes a big difference..

[00:14:58] Vicki Cantrell: Makes a whole different thing. Yeah. And, uh, [00:15:00] to the champion thing, the other thing that we uncovered that we thought was really interesting was who c- who in your organization, they don't have to be your champion, yet, who in the organization can help you understand how to navigate the organization?

[00:15:17] Like, just have somebody explain their company culture- And if you go here, this one's gonna get upset, but here's a person ... And we thought that was gold- Yeah ... too. Yeah. That just have somebody, it won't take long, to help them understand how to work in the company instead of just beating their head against

[00:15:35] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:15:36] People Buy From People: The Power of Just Asking Questions

[00:15:36] Ricardo Belmar: And I, I kind of thought that one of the things, and it, and it was said a few times, but I think this is a recurring theme that we've heard for years, you know, people buy from people.

[00:15:44] Yes. And but I think the phrase itself isn't the important thing, is what does that really mean to everyone when you say it?

[00:15:49] And i, I think what I heard from all the different things everyone said is that part of it is, it's okay to ask questions.

[00:15:57] Yes. I think a lot of people on the vendor side are [00:16:00] afraid to ask the retailer too many questions.

[00:16:01] Yes, they're... every salesperson on the vendor side has been trained to use questions to uncover as part of their discovery process. But they w- they try to be sometimes a little too cautious in the questions, and so they're not asking things like, " who's gonna have the most interest in this?"

[00:16:16] You know, what, to get that to the core problem you're trying to solve, so that asking more questions can be better. And that

[00:16:22] Dave Finnegan: and the right questions. Yes. Like switch from asking about budget- Right ... to asking

[00:16:26] Ricardo Belmar: the ROI. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Which I think comes back to at the end of the day, you're trying to solve a problem.

[00:16:32] Right? So as long as if you're coming at it from the vendor side, you're not just trying to sell something- and move on. You're trying to solve someone's problem with whatever the technology or solution is that you have to offer. And the retailer's goal is to just understand, can it do that? Because, a- and I think this may be something a lot of vendors miss too, is when they go into that meeting, they have a little bit of an assumption that the retailer already knows something about what they're coming to tell them. Yeah. And the fact is, the retailer might not know because part of why they w- [00:17:00]accepted the meeting is because they want to find out.

[00:17:02] Vicki Cantrell: Exactly.

[00:17:02] Ricardo Belmar: Can what you have solve my challenge and my problem? And that's really the thing that both of you are trying to communicate to each other.

[00:17:09] Vicki Cantrell: Yes.

[00:17:09] Ricardo Belmar: You're trying to get to that same answer of does it solve the problem or not?

[00:17:12] Dave Finnegan: So something that Casey and I were talking about off-camera before this is, look, if you come to me as a CIO or a CMO in- when I was in seat, and said, " what is the problem that you have?" That's different than saying, " what are you most excited about in the next 12 months that you're going to invest in?" There are problems and opportunities. Most of the stuff I was doing wasn't problem-solving, it was opportunity-seeking, right? Yeah. I was trying to innovate. I was trying to get out there. And so I think als- also, yeah. So I think right now, changing the what's your problem to, what is the thing... This, I learned this from my brother. He, when he sits down with people, well, he's an investor.

[00:17:54] He said, " what are you most excited for in the next 12 months?" Mm-hmm. And they start explaining [00:18:00] things that they're excited about. Yeah. And guess what? It'll plug into stuff that you do. Yeah. Or people that you can introduce them to.

[00:18:05] Right. And so I think switching it from a problem base that you and I were talking about- Yeah ... .........to a what are you excited about changes the dialogue-

[00:18:14] Ricardo Belmar: Right.

[00:18:14] Dave Finnegan: meaning- in

[00:18:15] Vicki Cantrell: yeah.

[00:18:16] Stop Asking "What's Your Problem" — Ask This Instead

[00:18:16] Casey Golden: And I think we can all agree that, like, AI is going to be part of the solution- some point. at some point, sure. We don't need to talk about it immediately because the brands also have access to AI. Just like every single solutio- solution that a vendor's putting out right now, and being able to go direct to these players- Yeah ... and work directly with through partners. So I think we can just make the assumption AI is going to be involved.

[00:18:42] It doesn't need to be the number one narrative. Mm-hmm. It's assumed now. It's assumed

[00:18:47] Vicki Cantrell: we need to take the language

[00:18:49] Casey Golden: And maybe something- The timing signal is different, that we're not Some of the solution will be- Yeah ... driven with AI. Some of the solution won't, won't be. Some things will be solved in other ways because it doesn't need it.

[00:18:59] Dave Finnegan: [00:19:00] Yeah. So, so it starts with the right business opportunity or problem solve or opportunity and assume that it's going to be an aI-enabled. Yeah. But right now, a lot of people are starting

[00:19:11] Vicki Cantrell: Yeah with the

[00:19:12] Dave Finnegan: story and then not telling the other part of the story.

[00:19:15] Vicki Cantrell: One other thing that we learned today that I thought was r- also interesting and a big aha moment for the vendors. The retailers, because they can't keep up with everything that's out there, and because they are now in the point where they're coming to events, talking to their peers in the industry, that has skyrocketed-

[00:19:33] mm-hmm

[00:19:33] 'cause everybody's trying something different- Right ... and they gotta sit across and say, "what'd you do? What'd you do? "I tried this." "Okay."

[00:19:39] So knowing that that has skyrocketed, what the solution providers don't capitalize on is how much information that they have across their customer base of what people are doing.

[00:19:52] And- Right ... I, I've heard this at three things in the last two weeks that I've been at, where the retailers were [00:20:00] saying, "I would love it if the vendor would look at my roadmap," because they're developing stuff so fast. "

[00:20:06] Mm-hmm. Yeah. Look at my roadmap and say, 'I get that, but have you thought of this?' Challenge me. Challenge me." Right. "Because I can't keep up with their enhancements and innovations." No, I mean, people have like feet. Yeah. .............................................Okay?

[00:20:18] And they're, they're so used to being pushed aside or pushed- Mm-hmm.

[00:20:23] Right ... at arm's length. Right. They don't realize how much the retailers would love the expertise they have of the vision across the customers they have, and they're too worried about giving away someone's name that didn't get approval.

[00:20:36] That's not what it's about. Right. It's about speaking about the business problems ......that have been solved, what's working. Yeah. And that- It's about learning from others, right? Yeah They've already done this. Really needs to change. Yeah. They need to capitalize on-

[00:20:47] That's a great point ...the great knowledge that they have.

[00:20:50] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah.

[00:20:50] Dave Finnegan: From an anthropology perspective, we're going through a massive change, like a cultural change. Yeah. And when we experience cultural change at this scale, [00:21:00]comparing notes to others, with others, is the quickest cheat code- Yeah ... to navigation of change- Yeah, yeah ... is comparing others' notes. So vendors who understand that they're gonna be talking to my customers, and I wanna put them in contact, and I wanna be in those trusted networks, I wanna be in the right rooms, I think are the ones that are gonna- win.

[00:21:21] Vicki Cantrell: Yeah.

[00:21:22] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. I agree. That's a great- did you get to get on it? Great takeaway. I did. Yeah. Yep. I'm, i'm hoping I, I get to go again to another VIP Connect.

[00:21:30] Dave Finnegan: You, and Casey are invited

[00:21:33] Ricardo Belmar: all right, we'll be there. We will be there.

[00:21:35] Well, Dave, Vicki, thank you so much for, for stopping by and, uh,

[00:21:39] Vicki Cantrell: Thanks for having us talking with Yeah. Yeah. It was great.

[00:21:42] We're excited see-

[00:21:44] Ricardo Belmar: great session,

[00:21:44] Vicki Cantrell: and everything that ... happens ...

[00:21:45] Ricardo Belmar: definitely, I think, something that everybody stands to gain from.

[00:21:47] Dave Finnegan: Yeah. Awesome. Great. Thanks for the

[00:21:49] Vicki Cantrell: thanks

[00:21:49] Casey Golden: Thanks for the

[00:21:50] Vicki Cantrell: Thanks for the invite. Thanks. Always good to see you guys.

[00:21:51] Casey Golden: Bye.

[00:21:51] Vicki Cantrell: Thanks, guys. Bye. Put your sunscreen Yes, for sure. This episode is a wrap!

[00:21:56] Show Close

[00:22:01] Casey Golden: Okay, admit it, you loved this episode. I know you did. Hit subscribe and drop us a five-star rating and review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or Goodpods. And if you're watching us on YouTube, like and subscribe and drop a comment before you go.

[00:22:15] I'm Casey Golden

[00:22:17] Ricardo Belmar: Follow us on LinkedIn, Bluesky, Threads, and Instagram, and subscribe to our Substack newsletter for highlights and bonus content. For transcripts and guest info, visit us at retailrazor.com.

[00:22:29] I'm Ricardo Belmar

[00:22:30] Casey Golden: Thanks for joining us on the Retail Razor Show, part of the Retail Razor Podcast Network

[00:22:35] Ricardo Belmar: Until next time, stay sharp, stay human, and stay ahead.

[00:22:38] This is the Retail Razor Show!

[00:22:40]